Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#321

Post by cbhl » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:26 AM UTC

xor1 wrote: post #315

cbhl wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that you are derailing the conversation, and I would appreciate it if you would stop.

Can you please explain how it's derailment? Do you think my concern is an invalid one? As someone who has been through the ringer with borderlines multiple times, it is something that I think about constantly, and I think it's a mistake to ignore the fact that it's a real thing and that people with borderline personality disorder exist in professional workplaces.

Here's a resource: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Derailment

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#322

Post by firebones » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:26 AM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #256

rhcom2 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the women isn't interested, you stop. Seems like many men have a problem with rejection and accepting no, that's usually when it becomes creepy. Had Gates asked his now SO out and she said no and then he politely went on his way like a respectful human being I really doubt anyone would cry sexual harassment.

Haha. You'll want to read the story of what he actually did before making this assumption. If the names were redacted from the Bill and Melinda story, everyone here would be calling for his head.

I can't find anything other than that he awkwardly asked her out (after dating a number of Microsoft employees). Most of the recent stories read like sanitized rewrites of history.

But I did find this somewhat interesting 1995 history of the lengths they went to in order to protect their privacy:

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=199...

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#323

Post by greggman » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:27 AM UTC

haikuginger wrote: post #270

stcredzero wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a certain point, one has to believe that another's actions are evil, even if that evil is unwitting. One mustn't actively choose to be "evil and predatory" to be so in fact. So something can become so horrible, that even a mistaken action should be defined as evil? Sorry, but that sounds wrong, and itself willfully vengeful. In that case, shouldn't we just do away with manslaughter and just say everyone who has ki…

You're making a false equivalence; often, the distinction between murder and manslaughter is the lack of an actual _intent to kill_, not simply the presence of a mistaken belief that the killing would be welcomed as "a really alpha move". Even in cases where intent isn't there, other factors (for example, hitting and killing someone while driving drunk or too far over the speed limit) can make an accidental killing m…

I'm trying to understand the intent of your reference. The scene you're referring to is when Sam finds out after he slept with the woman that she happened to be a prostitute. He didn't pay her as a prostitute. He met a nice woman and they spent the night together. Next morning he finds out she has a job that might get him in trouble.

How is that relevant to your point? It seems like the opposite of your point.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#324

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:28 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #247

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it . These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desireable. They think that this is how the game is played, and these things are a form of peacocking. They th…

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it. These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desirable. Basically, power corrupts. Being a boss, an investor, or an employer comes with power. Just having t…

> Basically, power corrupts.

No, it doesn't; that description negates the agency and responsibility of the powerful.

Power (basically by definition) weakens external constraints, including constraints that inhibit expression of corrupt impulses.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#325

Post by xor1 » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:31 AM UTC

cbhl wrote: post #321

xor1 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please explain how it's derailment? Do you think my concern is an invalid one? As someone who has been through the ringer with borderlines multiple times, it is something that I think about constantly, and I think it's a mistake to ignore the fact that it's a real thing and that people with borderline personality disorder exist in professional workplaces.

Here's a resource: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Derailment

>It is not derailing to say, because considering the needs of these women is still considering the needs of women.

Borderlines are harming women as well with their behavior, not just men. Their false accusations don't have to be sexual in nature, and can be aimed at other women. According to that definition, it isn't derailment.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#326

Post by rokhayakebe » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:31 AM UTC

novavex wrote: post #164

rokhayakebe wrote: post #115

HN Women. I am a male and I am genuinely curious. Is the following SH or does the position of power the person holds make it SH or does the environment (workplace) make it SH. "“I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you.”"

A bit worrying that this is ambiguous, but I would say that it is largely because of the position of power. Like someone mentioned earlier, "hire" and "hit on" should never be in the same sentence. And as a common courtesy I believe people shouldn't be hitting on their co-workers in the workplace in the first place. That makes everyone uncomfortable.

But there is this https://www.popsugar.com/career/More-Couples-Meet-Work-Than-...

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#327

Post by Tasboo » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:32 AM UTC

smmsnsks wrote: post #248

gizmo wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of intent, this contributes to the problem. A lot of mentoring and networking happens on a 1:1 basis, and if men refuse to meet women 1:1 in situations where they would meet with other men, then women will lose out on career opportunities.

The risks are too great for me to make that my problem. If a woman wants a meeting with me, I'm happy to make time for her, it just has to be during the daytime.

This is your problem. You are essentially ensuring a woman will never receive the same respect or treatment from you as you do with men. This is on you to fix. Stop avoiding it.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#328

Post by idibidiart » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:35 AM UTC

If this is what happens in Silicon Valley, I wonder what happens in Wall St firms.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#329

Post by greggman » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:39 AM UTC

kchoudhu wrote: post #268

api wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am white and male and the misogyny I've observed in tech has annoyed me . If it annoys me it must be intolerable to women. I believe every word of it and I could tell a few stories of things I've seen. I've seen a lot of other kinds of assholery too. Tech has an underbelly just like any other major industry. FWIW I've heard Hollywood and Wall St. are worse.

The one sexual harassment case I saw on Wall Street in the decade I worked there was dealt with viciously by HR, in favor of the victim. My network informs me that similar efficiency exists across the Street. I'd encourage any women skeezed out by SV to apply for Wall Street jobs: more cash, less groping.

When I saw Wolf of Wall Street I couldn't believe the in office orgies shown. I was like "How don't people get sued". I brought that up with friends in finance and they basically said "oh the stories I could tell" and they were referring to their current jobs.

So apparently that does happen on Wall Street as well?

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#330

Post by rokhayakebe » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:42 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #186

bdamm wrote: post #144

I have a confession to make. With few exceptions, I cannot work with a woman without thinking about having sex with her. It's not like I'm trying, it's more like the thought is a blinking red light and I can't help but look at the thought. Then I realize the thought is absurd, but it's already happened. This normally doesn't leak out, but for some women, I will give them "eyes" and usually feel bad about it afterward…

Acknowledge that reptilian instinct and then check it. Also, spend more time around women outside work. As friends, e.g. friends' wives, girlfriends or even just interesting women you meet.

friends' wives,

Bad advice or this gentleman, for now.