Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#281

Post by rayiner » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:22 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #247

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it . These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desireable. They think that this is how the game is played, and these things are a form of peacocking. They th…

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it. These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desirable. Basically, power corrupts. Being a boss, an investor, or an employer comes with power. Just having t…

> To me, this is the sort of "fainting couch" feminism that regards women as only potential victims who can't stand up for themselves and who must be protected by others.

It's not fainting couch feminism, it's pragmatic feminism. These interactions happen in a context where peoples' livelihoods, their hopes and dreams, are on the line. Are you going to expect them to jeopardize that by overtly calling someone out?

There is a reason we put the onus on men to not make unwanted advances instead of putting it on women to clearly reject them. It's costless to refrain from hitting on your coworkers/underlings/potential hires. In contrast, there is potentially a very high cost to a woman overtly rejecting an advance. At best, it results in hurt feelings and embarrassment in a superior/potential boss/potential investor. At worst, it can result in negative repercussions (a coworker badmouthing you as "a bitch," a hiring manager passing on your application, an investor passing on your idea).

If you consider yourself a decent person, why would you put someone else between a rock and a hard place like that? There are literally billions of women on the planet, and 99.99% don't work with you/for you.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#282

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:22 AM UTC

rl3 wrote: post #7

This entire article is a smorgasbord of cringe: > During the recruiting process, Mr. McClure, a founder of 500 Startups and an investor, sent her a Facebook message that read in part, “I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you.” One would think having the phrases "hire you" and "hit on you" in the same sentence when communicating with someone undergoing recruitment at your company would be…

[deleted]

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#283

Post by guelo » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:25 AM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #13

This is a watershed moment in the VC industry. The dam has finally burst, and we're now seeing the establishment of a new norm in which women who are being harassed go public rather than feeling compelled to hide it. Expect to see many men who were operating under the old norms getting ousted.

It's weird to me that this is happening right after the country elected an admitted sexual harasser to be president.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#284

Post by plandis » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:25 AM UTC

zzalpha wrote: post #128

chrischen wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you're not doing doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear." Ahh--if only this were ever true.

Again, that statement is only false if these are false accusations. Are you saying they're false accusations?

Are you suggesting the false sexual harassment / rape accusations never happen? I think there are some athletes from Duke who were subject to character assassination and would entirely disagree with you.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#285

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:25 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #281

stcredzero wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it. These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desirable. Basically, power corrupts. Being a boss, an investor, or an employer comes with power. Just having t…

> To me, this is the sort of "fainting couch" feminism that regards women as only potential victims who can't stand up for themselves and who must be protected by others. It's not fainting couch feminism, it's pragmatic feminism. These interactions happen in a context where peoples' livelihoods, their hopes and dreams, are on the line. Are you going to expect them to jeopardize that by overtly calling someone out? Th…

[deleted]

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#286

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:30 AM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #274

stcredzero wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it. These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desirable. Basically, power corrupts. Being a boss, an investor, or an employer comes with power. Just having t…

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#287

Post by kelukelugames » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:30 AM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #32

nickpeterson wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These men are not attractive enough to make this ok.

"It's okay if you're attractive enough" is wrong on multiple levels no matter how it's phrased.

Maybe the best way to phrase this is "If there is mutual attraction." Plenty of people marry their co workers. And there are plenty of non creepy/harassing ways to figure out if someone else is interested.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#288

Post by tyingq » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:31 AM UTC

guelo wrote: post #283

CydeWeys wrote: post #13

This is a watershed moment in the VC industry. The dam has finally burst, and we're now seeing the establishment of a new norm in which women who are being harassed go public rather than feeling compelled to hide it. Expect to see many men who were operating under the old norms getting ousted.

It's weird to me that this is happening right after the country elected an admitted sexual harasser to be president.

It, among other recent events, created opportunity for open discussion about the issue.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#289

Post by xor1 » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:31 AM UTC

acdha wrote: post #275

xor1 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/prevalence/border... I don't consider 1.6% among the general population to be "vanishingly small". That's easily approaching and I think even exceeding 1/100 when you factor for women only, since the majority of BPD diagnoses are for women. This isn't really insignificant when you think about how many people you will run into during a typical career. This also doesn't accoun…

You're conflating two different things: if 1.6% of the population has BPD that still doesn't tell you that 100% of them are untreated and spending their time and credibility making false accusations, or that those wouldn't fall apart fairly quickly. That might happen on TV but most real people with mental illnesses spend time trying to minimize their impact on others, not act like the bad guy in a police procedural.

How much do you know about BPD? 100% may not be untreated, but the majority of them are.

Here's a source that says people with BPD drop out of treatment 70% of the time:

http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar04/treatment.aspx

I don't know if sources for what % of people who self-identify/self-diagnosis as borderline never seek any sort of professional diagnosis or treatment exist. Given the nature of the condition and my own personal experiences, I think it is significant.

>spending their time and credibility making false accusations, or that those wouldn't fall apart fairly quickly

The most important thing to understand about borderlines is that their behavior can be irrational and even self/mutually-destructive. You are trying to analyze this hypothetical situation from a logical point of view, and that is a mistake.

>most real people with mental illnesses spend time trying to minimize their impact on others

That is definitely not how people with BPD operate. They're often described as "emotional vampires" for a reason. They feed off drama and conflict. They maximize their impact on other people.

Please feel free to ask me for any additional sources to back up my points, or for anything else about BPD that you might be interested in, and I will happily find them for you.

I think it is EXTREMELY important to discuss BPD and spread awareness of it. BPDs harm legitimate accusers and the falsely accused alike with their behavior. It's in everyone's best interest (including the borderlines themselves) to get as many borderlines into treatment as possible, and to keep them in it.

In my opinion, they're one of the most significant roadblocks standing against actually achieving true gender-based equality, because men who get burned by a borderline are usually unable to find an explanation for what just happened to them nor any sort of support system because no one else really knows what is going on either. It can be really difficult to accept that BPD is even a real thing if you haven't personally experienced a relationship (romantic, professional, or platonic) with someone who has it. Hell, even after living through it, it's hard to accept.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#290

Post by rsj_hn » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:31 AM UTC

rubicon33 wrote: post #38

Apocryphon wrote: post #15

How is it that the old money industries of Wall Street and Hollywood, no vanguards of gender egalitarianism themselves, seem to have less flagrant sexual harassment issues? Do they keep them under wraps or are they just more mature by now?

The tech industry, for all it's faults and transgressions, is still a relatively progressive industry (emphasis on RELATIVE). "Old money industries" have been getting away with this type of behavior for decades, if not centuries. Women in those jobs probably see no point in reporting it or coming forward. Why would they? It's not going to make headlines that the secretary at Goldman Sachs gets propositioned for sex b…

I would say the tech industry is one of the few industries where a tight labor market means workers have power. When they have power, they are more likely to speak up about abuse and know that they will still be employable.