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Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

nytimes.com

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Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#211

Post by sillysaurus3 »

GuiA wrote: post #78
Apocryphon wrote: post #15

How is it that the old money industries of Wall Street and Hollywood, no vanguards of gender egalitarianism themselves, seem to have less flagrant sexual harassment issues? Do they keep them under wraps or are they just more mature by now?

The answer to your question, as other commenters are pointing out, is in the "seem". They seem to have less flagrant issues, but that's just appearances. While tech still has a very long way to go, at least speaking up is becoming acceptable, and won't bar you from the industry for life. An Uber engineer who speaks up will never work for Uber again, but she can still find work in the industry (if she so desires). Som…

Why is this downvoted, let alone so heavily?

Maybe saying something will correct it.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#212

Post by tuna-piano »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #197
tuna-piano wrote: post #129

Wow, this seems terrible. For these women (and from the sounds of it, many more) to always have to second guess if an investor likes them for good business reasons or whether it's just because they're pretty. To always dread meeting a new business contact, knowing there's a small but substantial chance he'll make some awkward comment. Some thoughts: 1. Is this more common in silicon valley than elsewhere? (I've never…

Also want to reply to #4. The thing that differentiates the sexual harassment in most of these cases is that there's a power imbalance. Being hit on becomes much scarier if declining might jeopardize your job or your startup's funding.

That's a fair point, but I chose those specific examples because there was a power imbalance. Brin was a co-founder of Google, where Amanda Rosenberg worked (dated for at least a bit). Bill Gates met his wife Melinda when she was a Microsoft employee (still married, 23 years).

And Phil Knight (founder of Nike) actually met his wife when she was a student in his accounting class (power imbalance #1). He then hired her at Nike (power imbalance #2) and eventually initiated a romantic relationship with her[1]. They're still married today, ~50 years later.

[1]This courtship, and the entire Phil Knight/ Nike story is told in his memoir, "Shoe Dog", which has 4.8 stars on Amazon, is highly recommended by Bill Gates, and is the best business book I've ever read.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#213

Post by rhcom2 »

tuna-piano wrote: post #140
tuna-piano wrote: post #129

Wow, this seems terrible. For these women (and from the sounds of it, many more) to always have to second guess if an investor likes them for good business reasons or whether it's just because they're pretty. To always dread meeting a new business contact, knowing there's a small but substantial chance he'll make some awkward comment. Some thoughts: 1. Is this more common in silicon valley than elsewhere? (I've never…

I just want to elaborate on point #4. I chose those examples purposefully: Those three are all well-known business leaders who have dated or married their subordinates. Presumably, there was a point where Gates/Brin/Knight initiated or suggested to initiate romantic involvement. If as it turns out the woman had not been interested, in retrospect, would the methods of initiation seem like sexual harassment? I believe…

If the women isn't interested, you stop. Seems like many men have a problem with rejection and accepting no, that's usually when it becomes creepy.

Had Gates asked his now SO out and she said no and then he politely went on his way like a respectful human being I really doubt anyone would cry sexual harassment.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#214

Post by tyingq »

Apocryphon wrote: post #15

How is it that the old money industries of Wall Street and Hollywood, no vanguards of gender egalitarianism themselves, seem to have less flagrant sexual harassment issues? Do they keep them under wraps or are they just more mature by now?

I assume part of it is that if an industry has that reputation, women entering are on guard for it. Or maybe avoiding that industry altogether.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#215

Post by microcolonel »

josephpmay wrote: post #209
microcolonel wrote: post #187

PSA: If you are an honest man who manages or works with women in any capacity, please keep complete audio records of your time at work. File storage is cheap, a false charge will cost you your livelihood and damage the reputation of your entire industry. If you live in a jurisdiction which requires more than one present party to consent to recording, run for your life. P.S. not at all insinuating that the accusations…

This is illegal in many states

Just realized it's illegal in California, what a sorry and oppressive place California is. Most of the wonders in California appear to be natural, and stand in spite of human intervention rather than because of it.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#216

Post by refurb »

For everyone who is wondering why these people act the way they do, the answer is that their actions work some of the time. Otherwise, why would they do it if they continually strike out?

What one person might see as harassment, another might see as an exciting "chase". I've known women who have had guys be very aggressive (it's a fine line) and they were quite taken by it.

This of course is not excusing the behavior whatsoever. If you lack the social skills to see when you've crossed the line, the best approach is avoid the behavior all together.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#217

Post by mikeash »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #178
mikeash wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The good ol' "I don't want to be accused of a crime, so I'll preemptively commit a crime" defense. I would strongly advise against discriminating against people based on their sex in the course of your business dealings.

Is sexual discrimination in business actually a crime in the US? I thought it was typically handled in civil court.

I think you're right. It's "unlawful" but handled civilly.

While looking up the relevant law, I looked through the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which prohibits employment discrimination on the basis of sex and various other things, and discovered that there is an explicit exception written in to the law for members of the Communist Party. So you can totally discriminate against any commies who might try to work for you. Not really relevant here, but so weird I just had to share.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#218

Post by pravda »

tuna-piano wrote: post #140
tuna-piano wrote: post #129

Wow, this seems terrible. For these women (and from the sounds of it, many more) to always have to second guess if an investor likes them for good business reasons or whether it's just because they're pretty. To always dread meeting a new business contact, knowing there's a small but substantial chance he'll make some awkward comment. Some thoughts: 1. Is this more common in silicon valley than elsewhere? (I've never…

I just want to elaborate on point #4. I chose those examples purposefully: Those three are all well-known business leaders who have dated or married their subordinates. Presumably, there was a point where Gates/Brin/Knight initiated or suggested to initiate romantic involvement. If as it turns out the woman had not been interested, in retrospect, would the methods of initiation seem like sexual harassment? I believe…

>Those three are all well-known business leaders who have dated or married their subordinates.

Here's another one: Bezos! He married a subordinate.

http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Mackenzie+Bezos/Business+Leader...

And she's cute. Cue ball did well for himself.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#219

Post by f4rker »

CydeWeys wrote: post #13

This is a watershed moment in the VC industry. The dam has finally burst, and we're now seeing the establishment of a new norm in which women who are being harassed go public rather than feeling compelled to hide it. Expect to see many men who were operating under the old norms getting ousted.

I wonder when the men who are being abused will come speak out? I have lost a job for not sleeping with my boss and a friend of mine says her boyfriend had the same thing happened.

~ queue everyone laughing because when stuff happens to men its funny ~

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#220

Post by robbrown451 »

svwc wrote: post #203
rdlecler1 wrote: post #11

Has anyone seen a policy on how to handle sexual harassment allegations in the work place? If it comes down to 'he says she says' do you fire someone even though you don't have evidence? Similarly, if you don't fire someone and new allegations come up later then it makes the employer look like they are an enabler.

A witness statement is evidence. Evidence isn't only things you can touch. A photograph isn't any more evidence than a witness statement is. A photograph isn't inherently more credible than a witness statement. You should consider the credibility of each piece of evidence regardless of what type of evidence it is. A statement made by a trustworthy employee should be taken seriously, "he said she said" is not a valid…

Sure but if it is denied by the other employee, you've got directly contradicting evidence. That's what "he said she said" is.

I suppose the right word is "hard evidence." And yes I would say a photograph is, in general, more credible than a witness statement.

I say this as someone who just went through a long trial (representing myself, while the other side had an attorney), with a lot of "he said she said", and where a tape recording (of a violent attack on me) and photographs (of bruises) made all the difference.

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