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Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

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Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#501

Post by c22 »

barrkel wrote: post #227
wfunction wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy is actively and explicitly lying to get paid money that he otherwise likely would not , and yet you "don't think there's an ethical consideration here" ? What has this world devolved into?

Communication isn't the value he's generating, and he's not causing harm through deception. Companies employing me all my life have lied by omission to me, about my value to the company and how much more they benefit from my work over and above my salary. Is that ethical?

He is causing harm through deception. The bugs he produces as a ruse have to be checked for and repaired by other employees who might not need to check the output of a well tested automated solution at all.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#502

Post by slantyyz »

davidw wrote: post #484
arthurjj wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Assuming he's salaried and not hourly there's no argument in my mind that he should feel required to tell them. If he's hourly I'd say it might be a gray area.

> If he's hourly I'd say it might be a gray area If you're on contract to work X hours and you're doing 20% of that, it's a "gray area"?

That really depends. I've seen a lot of contract engagements where part of "the work" is just being there (or available) during standard business hours (e.g., 40h) regardless of whether you're doing anything. So depending on the situation, it is a "gray area".

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#503

Post by dkonofalski »

kelnos wrote: post #98
ceejayoz wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're "not 'on the hook' for fraud" only because you haven't shared material facts ("this has been going on for 6-months"), you're committing fraud .

Let's separate out the two things here. One is the deliberate insertion of errors. He should stop doing that. That's not cool. (I wouldn't label it as "fraud" though.) If the employer found out about that, they'd be well within their rights (legally, ethically, whatever) to fire him over that point alone. However, it doesn't sound like the intentional errors are any more than what would naturally occur if he hadn't a…

I agree with you wholeheartedly on point #2 but am completely in disagreement over point #1. It's definitely fraud because he's manually inserting the errors specifically to deceive and give the illusion that he's doing something he's not. Whether the job is automated or not doesn't really matter. To your point, he could just have gotten so good that there aren't any errors anymore after 6 months and no one would bat an eye. To deliberately insert errors that don't exist simply so that he can give the appearance of not doing something is intentional fraud.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#504

Post by lz400 »

Bakary wrote: post #435
lz400 wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would see it this way: I would offer to give that person more responsibility and more and perhaps more complex work. He could decide to perform as before and keep browsing reddit but if they choose to take more work that's likely the best path upward in the organization. Eventually the one who chooses no. 2 gets a promotion and gets paid more.

I hear this argument often but I wonder in which percentage of cases the extra work actually translates into a net benefit for the employee. Promotions are linked to how you are perceived, and this is turn linked to factors that do not necessarily include the amount of work you put in.

I think extra work and productivity translating into reward is one of the best indicators that you are in a good company.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#505

Post by jgamman »

rubber_duck wrote: post #432
nwatson wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Usually the people who take a crap job like that simply don't spend that much time on intellectual pursuits to begin with. There are many who through circumstance or poor (or good?) choices ended up with the crap job but nevertheless pay attention to the larger world around them learn as much as they can. Maybe they studied history and are working in an Amazon warehouse. There is a lot of "squandered" intelligence…

I've worked this kind of job when I was younger - I think "a lot" is overstating it. There may be some people above the level working those kind of jobs but most are not really what you would called untapped geniuses. These are folk you can't rely on pressing a few buttons in the correct sequence when the situation is life threatening. Guesstimate : a lot of them are sub 100 IQ. Educated people working in professions…

that'd be around half as a first order approximation.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#506

Post by Tsagadai »

photojosh wrote: post #258
mmastrac wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Piecework (and Mechnical Turk!) probably makes more sense in an environment with Basic Income. That gives the employee a chance to decide if the effort is worth the $/piece without compromising on their health and welfare.

Yep. Basic income means we can do away with minimum wage. Now let's see how much poorly-regarded jobs (like janitorial) end up paying when the free market really does decide.

It would probably increase the value of such work. If I get $600/mo I am going to want a lot more than that to work full time doing something messy. Anything that was previously paying below the basic income amount would have to increase the wage to get anyone to take it up. This is already an issue in countries with an actual welfare system, you can't really pay below the dole rate and expect anything other than illegal workers who are going to do the absolute minimum.

This isn't a downside of basic income, there is always a floor on the amount you can pay for labour. If you pay below what the market expects you are only going to get the truly inept to do it.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#508

Post by Tsagadai »

ue_ wrote: post #157
austenallred wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems the greater question is, "What is the employer paying for?" Economic theory suggests an employer pays for value created. After all, if an employee is generating less economic value than they're consuming, it makes sense to fire that person. But that's only true in a fantasy world where you can perfectly measure and compensate that kind of performance, like performing physics equations without air resistance…

>The reality is calculating "value created" is extraordinarily difficult, so we use "hours-of-butt-in-seat" because it's the closest proxy. Some would disagree on this, the Marxian school posits that the employer really is paying for "hours-of-butt-in-seat", technically, labour-time (note, this is not the same as labour, or the value created by the labour). As such, value of the products doesn't come into it at all,…

I don't know which school of Marx's economics you went to but Marx argued entirely by value created. That is, the value of a worker's labour is the value that they should receive.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#509

Post by kimsia »

observation wrote: post #495
wst_ wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think you couldn't get good salary as a developer in UK. Is IT market so low paid in there? I know at least one person who seems to be fine in there.

Yes, in comparison to the alternatives for somebody like the average programmer Trigger Warning: Micro Essay coming up and one that may irk you. I understand that and accept my view is not the conventional one. My view: I have a negative view of the industry, but I think I can justify it. Don't read on unless you want to hear about the industry's failure modes. There are many positive things about our industry and pe…

Thank you for that. I really appreciate your candor.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#510

Post by kimsia »

mmmpop wrote: post #490
Natsu wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't put anything into absolutes. I know one guy who left the factory floor to become a pharmacist and another who left for IT. But on average, the people I knew had been in some minor trouble and needed something to put food on the table. And a factory job paid just barely enough more than average that they could support their family even though the work really sucked. And boy did it suck. I honestly worry abo…

> I know one guy who left the factory floor to become a pharmacist and another who left for IT. I spent the better part of my post-dropout early 20s doing work as "lowly" as shoveling literal horseshit as a general contractor's assistant while I spent my evenings learning the software business. Fast forward to 30 and I'm sitting here in my swanky coworking space in one of the most desirable parts of one of the most d…

I, too, noticed that what matters is how good you want to be, not how good you currently are.
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