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Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

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Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#471

Post by logfromblammo »

pbh101 wrote: post #130
logfromblammo wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the company didn't make the right decision. They hired a programmer to do the work of a data-entry person. If they hired that programmer to do the work of a programmer, the automation software would be work-for-hire, and would belong to the company. Since they hired the programmer to do different work, in the absence of an explicit agreement saying otherwise, the automation software belongs to OP, to use (and lic…

Most of the time, employers are savvy enough to write employment contracts which cover this eventuality and lay broad claim to all work products and require the employee to do any sort of work. My guess is that most programmers are employed under contracts that give them no additional recourse if, for an extreme example, their employer decided that they should now spend their time on janitorial duties.

I'm laughing to myself right now. Employment contracts?! Most of the time, outside the utopian heaven that is Silicon Valley, tech pros are employed "at will", with no contract whatsoever, with several unilaterally signed "agreements", designed to intimidate the employee with legalisms and implied threat of lawsuits.

Nobody I know in the industry has a contract. We can all be fired at any time for any reason, or for no reason at all, and frequently have been. The one and only consequence we might face for not transferring rights to software that was not written at the behest of our employers is loss of employment. But we could face the same penalty for wearing cargo shorts or a tank top to the office one day.

If you write something worth more than your current job, go for it, buddy. The worst they can do is fire you. I have never seen even one of those accessory agreements that might meet the legal standard for a contract. I sign them because my employer tells me to sign them, and I don't want to be fired for insubordination.

I'd actually be fine doing janitorial work, if I still got the same pay. Because then I could delegate my assigned work to an actual janitor, earning janitor pay, and I could spend my free time looking for another job.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#472

Post by ethbro »

mathperson wrote: post #353
ethbro wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems the greater question is, "What is the employer paying for?" I would argue that in the US, at least in the CS/IT industry, the answer to this has been perverted into "all work you can be coerced into producing." Viz lack of overtime, non-competes, right to all work product, non-set-hours, etc It's almost like capital owners subconsciously realized that technology was likely to be the last place where skille…

non-competes aren't universal in the US at least. that said I am moving to a place where non competes DO exist (moving for grad school) and so I would much appreciate any advice and/or horror stories regarding how to manage them.

Imho, if you are asked to sign one then push back against it as hard as you can.

If you end up having to sign it, my problem is the power they give the employer, and the leverage that affords them to do frankly illegal things.

F.ex. my employer knows I'm covered by a non-compete. My employer also knows I'm being considered for a position at another firm. My employer calls the other firm and "reminds" them that its employees all sign non-compete agreements...

F.ex. I'm asking for a raise. My company knows I'm in dire financial straits and couldn't afford a year without income. The non-compete is broad enough to cover any employment in the field I'd have. They of course turn down my request because why would they worry about my leaving?

The chilling effect is that these same results can happen even if your company isn't enough of a dick to legally pursue its non-compete.

The mere threat of enforcement has therefore changed your behavior.

In another thread on the topic, I suggested getting a copy of the non-compete (or that one will not be used) as early in the hiring process as possible. If there is one, and you find the terms unreasonable (which to me is anything beyond "I promise not to work for a direct competitor on the same thing for 6 months"), I suggested putting a dollar amount over the presumably then negotiated salary.

E.g. "I think this non-compete is overly restrictive. Here are the things I would like changed. If this is important to you to be signed as-is, then I'll need salary x + y% instead of x."

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#473

Post by bjourne »

the_cat_kittles wrote: post #260
bjourne wrote: post #196

What's wrong with us workers? Do you think the Apple executes have some secret message board where they ask questions like: "Is it unethical for us to sell iPhones for $800 when they only cost $20 to produce?" Capitalism is what it is, you play the game and shouldn't feel bad the (few!) times you win.

disagree. its better to consider the ethical implications, and adjust your behavior accordingly. just because other people are ok making money unethically doesn't mean you should give yourself a pass. i get that there is an asymmetry between some companies and their employees though.

But I don't think it is unethical for Apple executes to overcharge for iPhones (my example was numerically wrong though, as photojosh points out). People are happy with iPhones so they buy them, just as this company is happy with the work the employee is performing.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#474

Post by rljy »

atemerev wrote: post #396
photojosh wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Basic income means we can do away with minimum wage. Now let's see how much poorly-regarded jobs (like janitorial) end up paying when the free market really does decide.

Basic income is financially impossible. Even retirement schemes are barely sustainable and constantly under pressure these days.

Financial impossibility is a strange thing. Is if physically impossible for just %20 of the population to work? We have so much amazing technology, we should be able to attain that. Why let money get in the way of what is physically possible? Its just paper. Its not even paper. Its an integer.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#475

Post by bhgraham »

I counter with another question. Is it ethical for a company to pay you the same to do more work? If you tell them you have automated your job, I guarantee that the reaction will be to give you more work. You will not get more free time or more pay.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#476

Post by m3rc »

analog31 wrote: post #268
dkersten wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should the person who more efficiently does their work be punished with more work when others can do less and still get paid the same?

Something I've thought about is, how do you quantify work? What are the units of measure? Joules? JIRA tasks? Hours? The problem is, that it's really hard to figure out. The only answer that seems to make sense is that work is measured in the same way that other kinds of value are measured: In dollars. The value of a dollar's worth of work is one dollar. Or it could be measured according to the value added per unit o…

We already have a lot of very comprehensive understandings of what work is. It's labor that produces capital. The workers doing so should be owning that capital.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#477

Post by Spooky23 »

vacri wrote: post #337
Spooky23 wrote: post #79

If you're a salaried employee assigned a task, you fulfill the task, and are available to respond to requests during business hours, there's no ethical issue here. If you're hourly and you are spending 3 hours a week and billing for 40, you're in bad ethical place in my mind.

If you're a salaried employee, you effectively have a standing contract where you're billing for 40.

Not unless you have a contract that states otherwise.

A salary definitionally is a fixed periodic rate paid for tasks performed for exempt employees. Piece-work, whether that be hours worked or output produced is metered.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#478

Post by jason_s »

kbutler wrote: post #309
emodendroket wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I mean, generally, any tools you create on company time, with company resources, are assigned to the company, if you're an employee.

If you are hired as a software engineer, yes, the systems you develop as part of your job belong to the company. If someone hires you to cut the grass, and you create a machine that does it (the "Yardba"(tm)), there's no reason that machine would belong to the employer - creating it was not a part of your job.

No, this depends entirely on your employment contract. (Though I do agree that presumably a groundskeeper would not have intellectual property clauses in their employment contract) I've worked for two companies and they had different clauses; one said something to the effect that they owned any IP in their business interest (regardless of whether it was created on company time or company equipment); the other was narrower and said that they owned IP created outside of work only if it was dependent on company confidential information.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#479

Post by jason_s »

logfromblammo wrote: post #471
pbh101 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time, employers are savvy enough to write employment contracts which cover this eventuality and lay broad claim to all work products and require the employee to do any sort of work. My guess is that most programmers are employed under contracts that give them no additional recourse if, for an extreme example, their employer decided that they should now spend their time on janitorial duties.

I'm laughing to myself right now. Employment contracts?! Most of the time, outside the utopian heaven that is Silicon Valley, tech pros are employed "at will", with no contract whatsoever, with several unilaterally signed "agreements", designed to intimidate the employee with legalisms and implied threat of lawsuits. Nobody I know in the industry has a contract. We can all be fired at any time for any reason, or for…

OK, that's splitting hairs; they are employment agreements, not employment contracts. Still a legal document, and they generally cover IP created by the employee and specify how IP created outside of company time is handled.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#480

Post by Mouse47 »

observation wrote: post #467
Mouse47 wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also an extremely narrow, ignorant view of ability/intelligence in general. I've never struggled with math or CS at any time in my life, cruised through college, but I find myself agonizing over the stark difference in social ability between myself and people who spend time doing more blue-collar stuff. As a developer, I've come to realize that my usefulness is bottlenecked mostly by my lack of social skills, an…

It is possible to become a social savant if you apply yourself and practice. Most social skills are a handful of routines and checklists coupled with practice in real life situations. You shouldn't label yourself 'bad at social' or 'bad at math' because it'll hold your confident to improve in check. If you keep a notebook, deliberately put yourself into social settings and keep score it'll be intimidating but you'll…

I hope so. Part of the problem is I think I'm a slow thinker, so when talking on technical concepts, people have a tendency to blow by me when I need clarification on the things they said three sentences ago. And once I finally get clarification, I have to retrace through their entire thought process with the new context.

Hard to manage this type of conversation without being a jerk.

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