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Denied Entry

daniel.haxx.se

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Re: Denied Entry

#61

Post by sapphire_tomb »

CaliforniaKarl wrote: post #11

Something that I was curious about, and which others might also be: >Sorry, you’re not allowed entry to the US on your ESTA. "ESTA" stands for the Electronic System for Travel Authorization, and is a program administered by US Customs & Border Protection (part of the Department of Homeland Security). It's used by people in Visa Waiver countries to submit information about themselves & their travel plans, before they…

Someone on the previous thread about this was arguing that the EU should start imposing the same sorts of border checks that the US does to EU citizens, on US citizens coming into the EU. The theory being that this sort of tit-for-tat approach would encourage US citizens so inconvenienced would shout for change at home.

Your post though, I think, outlines the flaw in this argument. Which is that most people don't know the rules of entry for foreign visitors to their own country, and wouldn't therefore know how onerous it is. Why would a US passport holder (by birth, of whom I assume there are a lot more than people who've acquired one after immigrating) have any clue what I, as a UK citizen, need to do in order to spend my vacation or whatever in Miami?

I'm certainly hazy on what the current rules are for US citizens to come to the UK. I think we have a visa-waiver programme in place, but I don't know what it entails at all, and whether it's already as terrible for US citizens coming here as it is for me going to the US.

So instigating those sorts of changes here is probably unlikely to have the effect that poster was hoping for. Hmm. This turned into a much longer ramble than I thought it would.

Re: Denied Entry

#62

Post by detaro »

sapphire_tomb wrote: post #61
CaliforniaKarl wrote: post #11

Something that I was curious about, and which others might also be: >Sorry, you’re not allowed entry to the US on your ESTA. "ESTA" stands for the Electronic System for Travel Authorization, and is a program administered by US Customs & Border Protection (part of the Department of Homeland Security). It's used by people in Visa Waiver countries to submit information about themselves & their travel plans, before they…

Someone on the previous thread about this was arguing that the EU should start imposing the same sorts of border checks that the US does to EU citizens, on US citizens coming into the EU. The theory being that this sort of tit-for-tat approach would encourage US citizens so inconvenienced would shout for change at home. Your post though, I think, outlines the flaw in this argument. Which is that most people don't kno…

It's actually an official principle in EU visa policy to grant visa waivers reciprocal to the other country granting it to EU citizens. The established time frames have been ignored in the case of the US for years, which is why this bubbles up regularly, especially when the situation gets worse.

Re: Denied Entry

#63

Post by rsj_hn »

russellbeattie wrote: post #22

Being denied entry is the same as being accused of a crime, but not being allowed to face your acuser nor defend yourself in any way. It's infuriating in every way, even if it doesn't affect directly. Why? Because someone, somewhere - most likely without a shred of empirical proof - decided that it would be "safer" if people aren't told why they were denied, because otherwise the "bad guys" would be able to circumven…

I get that this is a nice jumping off point for a general condemnation of the security state, but in this specific case, the VISA waiver program is primarily intended for tourism and allows only very limited business use:

https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/BusinessVisa%20Pu...

The common thread is that you can use it to receive awards, attend conferences, or meet with clients, but only if you do not receive any income for doing that. So something like an office all hands meeting is really a gray area -- you are being paid a salary to attend that all hands meeting. IANAL, but it doesn't seem like an extreme situation to say that this should require a regular B-1 VISA and not be covered under the visa waiver program.

Now you can argue that all hands should be covered, or that the VISA waiver laws should be changed, but reasonable people can disagree about this. I don't think the situation warrants current the level of outrage, or is a good poster boy for condemning bureaucrats wanting "control over our daily lives".

Also, the individual was not denied entry, he was denied a VISA waiver. He can still get the VISA and then enter. This is really something you need to check beforehand.

Re: Denied Entry

#64

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

pacaro wrote: post #28

Horrible though this is, it's (bizarrely) better than the pre-ESTA alternative. My brother was denied entry to the US in 2003 while traveling on a visa waiver. At this point he was detained (without access to counsel) until a suitable outbound flight was available, and deported. The red stamp in his passport renders him ineligible to apply for an entry visa until 2018. This is all on the discretion of one immigration…

FWIW that can still happen with ESTA as well.

Re: Denied Entry

#65

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

projectramo wrote: post #36

I think the reason for the denials is a change in the interpretation of the rules. ESTA used to be for short term visits for any reason. I think some people in CBP now interpret it to mean a short stay that is not "work" related. You can look up all the academics -- which were definitely covered by ESTA -- who have had issues because some people at the border were not sure on how to interpret them. They are not alone…

> I overheard a German visa officer tell an American that it was totally illegal for them to work if they just came as a visitor.

That can't be right. You are definitely allowed to work on a visa waiver in Austria and as far as I know it's the same in Germany if the company you work for applies for a permit. That is independently of the purpose of the visa.

In Austria at least all visas do not permit you to seek employment ("labor market access") where as permits (usually called "titles") give you labor market access. The border crossing is then usually decoupled from the permit.

For instance if you need a visa to enter Schengen you will need a Visa to cross and a title/permit to work. If you are visa exempt you only need the title/permit.

A quick googling also suggests that is the case for Germany.

Re: Denied Entry

#66

Post by germanier »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #65
projectramo wrote: post #36

I think the reason for the denials is a change in the interpretation of the rules. ESTA used to be for short term visits for any reason. I think some people in CBP now interpret it to mean a short stay that is not "work" related. You can look up all the academics -- which were definitely covered by ESTA -- who have had issues because some people at the border were not sure on how to interpret them. They are not alone…

> I overheard a German visa officer tell an American that it was totally illegal for them to work if they just came as a visitor. That can't be right. You are definitely allowed to work on a visa waiver in Austria and as far as I know it's the same in Germany if the company you work for applies for a permit. That is independently of the purpose of the visa. In Austria at least all visas do not permit you to seek empl…

No, the situation is different in Germany. You are not allowed to work under a visa waiver. The permit is something you personally apply for and not the company. Some time ago the permits regulating work and stay were unified so you only get issued one thing that contains everything. Some residence titles give you access to the whole labour market, some are coupled to a specific job, some don't allow you to work at all.

There is a special exemption for US citizens (and some others) which allows them to apply for a residence permit after entering Germany on a waiver. Until it is granted, no work is allowed.

The question though is whether "visiting clients" actually constitutes work. Just negotiating contracts does not, actually performing work there is (duh).

Re: Denied Entry

#67

Post by majewsky »

75dvtwin wrote: post #49
russellbeattie wrote: post #22

Being denied entry is the same as being accused of a crime, but not being allowed to face your acuser nor defend yourself in any way. It's infuriating in every way, even if it doesn't affect directly. Why? Because someone, somewhere - most likely without a shred of empirical proof - decided that it would be "safer" if people aren't told why they were denied, because otherwise the "bad guys" would be able to circumven…

Not sure I agree with the analogy " Being denied entry is the same as being accused of a crime " Consequence of being accused of crime is prosecution, with potential loss of freedom (or death). Consequence of being denied entry into one country in the world -- is not the same (unless you are unfairly prosecuted in your own country and there is no other country that you can go to). Being denied to enter a country, mor…

How is "being denied to enter a country" not "loss of freedom"?

Re: Denied Entry

#68

Post by majewsky »

Kostchei wrote: post #35
lucb1e wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in tech security and indeed, I've thought about this topic and I'd be nervous as hell. Then again, needing to put my laptop in check-in luggage (with a backdoored lock? Is that really a thing? I only saw "TSA-approved locks" mentioned somewhere and am only inferring the existence of backdoored locks here) is a no-go in the first place, so I'd need to (1) want to go to the USA, (2) not take a laptop and (3) pro…

1. Don't take the laptop, preferably don't take a phone, unless you can factory wipe it before entering customs. If this is not an option, don't go. With 10 years in forensics/ more in IT and a good/careful eye to the legislation, I have made the sad decision I can't go. (various work conferences)

Factory-wiping will not stop them from installing a rootkit in something like the SSD controller's firmware. I would be very reluctant to take any electronics with me across a US border. Maybe a cheap Android phone (that's not my main phone and that's not logged into my actual Google account) so that I can call up a map or get a taxi.

Re: Denied Entry

#69

Post by IshKebab »

projectramo wrote: post #36

I think the reason for the denials is a change in the interpretation of the rules. ESTA used to be for short term visits for any reason. I think some people in CBP now interpret it to mean a short stay that is not "work" related. You can look up all the academics -- which were definitely covered by ESTA -- who have had issues because some people at the border were not sure on how to interpret them. They are not alone…

The allowed business activities under the visa waiver program are:

* consult with business associates

* attend a scientific, educational, professional, or business convention or conference

* attend short-term training (you may not be paid by any source in the United States with the exception of expenses incidental to your stay)

* negotiate a contract

Source: https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/visit/visa-waiver-...

Academic conferences are explicitly allowed. This sounds more like "consult with business associates" though which should still be allowed.

Re: Denied Entry

#70

Post by rurban »

idkfa wrote: post #52

People coming to unstable states like US or Ukraine, balancing on the edge of government collapse, should expect such things to happen with pretty high probability. I really can't see why this could be surprising at all.

Actually Ukraine is the stable escape strategy for conferences which should have been held in Russia. Latia is also quite popular, but Ukraine is the usual target to escape Russia's strange visa handling. I wonder what will be the escape country for the US situation. Canada or Mexico.
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