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Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

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Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#411

Post by taway_1212 »

codyb wrote: post #347
rkda wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that. It's that not everyone who desires to be an engineer/surgeon/attorney has the resources or opportunities to do so. Some people are barely surviving as it is. Intellectual pursuits are a luxury for them.

Are they? In a world with libraries and vast amounts of knowledge in the palms of our hands? My Pops never graduated college but he's one of my biggest inspirations because he goes out and builds things (well, stays in and builds thing I suppose). He started by building fiberglass boats and eventually ended up having a career as a graphic designer (a much less menial job than factory worker to be sure), but when he l…

> But I also think there's something to be said for the people who don't primarily spend their free time scrolling through social media, watching television, and partying and instead perform small iterations frequently towards larger more rewarding goals.

The thing is, I could spend what little energy I have post-job to do something "rewarding", such as for example developing little game prototypes, or I could spend it to enrich my life by reading books, going hiking, meeting friends, and yes, mindlessly reading HN or watching TV shows. I feel like pursuing a hobby would leave me tired and drained (not to mention frustrated at the minimal progress I'd be making), while the activities I listed rejuvenate me and allow me to stay sane.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#412

Post by izacus »

the_cat_kittles wrote: post #260
bjourne wrote: post #196

What's wrong with us workers? Do you think the Apple executes have some secret message board where they ask questions like: "Is it unethical for us to sell iPhones for $800 when they only cost $20 to produce?" Capitalism is what it is, you play the game and shouldn't feel bad the (few!) times you win.

disagree. its better to consider the ethical implications, and adjust your behavior accordingly. just because other people are ok making money unethically doesn't mean you should give yourself a pass. i get that there is an asymmetry between some companies and their employees though.

I think you missed the point a bit. A company isn't people. The company the author works for will not feel remorse (it's not a person) when it'll squeeze every last cent out of a customer to maximize profits. I don't see why the employee should feel bad when it maximizes it's "profit margin" in relation to such entity.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#413

Post by honestoHeminway »

coldtea wrote: post #351
mmmpop wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, it's most certainly not! I wish someone could tell us how it is "elitist" to point out that some people are "smart" and some aren't. Not every person can be nor desires to be an engineer/surgeon/attorney and that's totally okay, the world needs big dumb jocks too.

> You're right, it's most certainly not! I wish someone could tell us how it is "elitist" to point out that some people are "smart" and some aren't. Well, for one it's a sign of a stupid person (who's also not paying attention) to believe that people working at lowly jobs aren't (or worse can't) be intelligent or follow intellectual pursuits.

Actually, i loved brooming on my familys farm. It has something meditative, you can philosophize way more with boring repetetive work.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#414

Post by janxgeist »

stmaarten wrote: post #409
janxgeist wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not slavery: you are free to quit your job and work for another company, or start your own business. But if you DECIDE to work for a company and take the thousand(s) of dollars each month so that you can live a comfortable life, then you owe them your loyality.

I wonder if you would agree with your statement on loyalty if the roles are reversed: "If the company DECIDES to hire you and use thousands of hours of your life each year so that the company can enjoy a profit, the company owes you its loyalty." Rare is the company whose leadership feels that any meaningful loyalty is owed to employees. Edit: I want to add that your 4 guidelines are wonderful if you work for genuine…

I agree with your reversed statement. The company needs to be loyal to it's employees too.

But in my opinion, some principles should not depend on how the other side acts:

"If my company is not loyal to me, it's my right to deceive them as well."

-> No, I will stick to my principles. I might bring it up to management. I might quit. But I won't act destructively because the other side does.

Otherwise it's a downwards spiral: you will meet many toxic people in your life. If you lower your standards everytime you do, at some point you will be one of them.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#416

Post by WaxProlix »

wfunction wrote: post #237
BeetleB wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, this guy went out of his way to lie and insert extra bugs in his code to make it appear like manual labor. Second, this guy is doing it all the time I don't see the difference. I've known people who intentionally work slowly or pretend to do manual labor when they've already got a process for automating it. They'll just goof around for a while and then run the automation. Whether you're introducing bugs to f…

> I don't see the difference. Really now? Are you sure it's not a case of you not wanting to see the difference? > Whether you're introducing bugs to fix yourself or pretending to work - the effect is the same. Being at work and not working is quite a far cry from actively lying that you did things that you didn't do, or from inserting defects in your code so that they pay you to remove them. It's at least honest to…

Why do you feel like this guy owes X company jack shit? Just like every other business in existence†, they'd drop him on his ass in a heartbeat if it helped their bottom line and you and I know it. This is business to them and it should be to him, too.

† Yes, some places at least act like they care. It doesn't matter if your dad's dad had or worked for a place that seemed to give a damn, that's not the point and you know it.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#417

Post by WaxProlix »

austenallred wrote: post #343
ue_ wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that work in the case where the employers have the majority of the bargaining power? What motivation is there to keep pushing up the wage? It would seem to work if the employer is choosing only one potential candidate, but in reality employers have an almost constant supply of people who are able and willing to work for almost whatever the employer is asking for. Almost never will two employers go head to h…

In theory there is never an infinite supply of employees, and at a certain point you run out of people that will work for $x. In practice that's not a question that can be answered in one comment, and right now it depends on who you ask. In my mental model of the world that's where the perfect simulation starts to break down and run into real world constraints.

I mean - if we're talking zero-friction circular cows, then if the unemployment rate is over 0%, there are more employees. The unemployment rate is always well above zero.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#418

Post by auserperson »

contravariant wrote: post #95
auserperson wrote: post #36

Is capitalism ethical though? Isn't every employee an exploited person? “What is the robbing of a bank compared to the founding of a bank?” - Bertolt Brecht

Tu quoque isn't a valid argument. More importantly it implies you actually do think his behaviour is unethical.

No it does not implies that. You are mixing your personal values with what I said, there's no direct implication. It could be considered unethical in a situation where there's a equal ground of absolute trust and exchange of goods and information, but that never happens between an employee and an employer in a capitalist society. In this situation, the employee is only taking advantage of the economic value he can obtain of this information asymmetry, something his employer also does. So they are both in equal moral grounds and both are trying to make surplus in a society that seeks surplus. He is not unethical in itself, the same way as someone that consumes a product is not necessarily unethical, but the system that produces the product is.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#419

Post by ProblemFactory »

gerbilly wrote: post #99
afandian wrote: post #27

When I was a student I took a work-from-home job manually generating HTML pages for an online furnishing shop. They somehow had a successful web presence but all sales were done by phone (early 2000s). They wanted to pay me by the hour, but I negotiated paying by the page instead. Of course, I automated the job. And surprisingly, at least to naïve me, they were annoyed that I automated it. Even though they got the sa…

You learned that people value effort over results. Here's a common situation from programming. A programmer, Steve, works long hours but writes sloppy code. Steve is often seen by management fixing critical issues in production, and 'saving the day'. Eventually Steve, leaves to work at a bigger company and is replaced by a new programmer, Dave, who is more methodical. Dave eventually cleans up the code and gets it to…

> You learned that people value effort over results.

People still value results, but they expect the price of things to be vaguely related to the cost of materials + time + small profit margin.

And in an efficient competitive market, prices are related to costs. If there were 5 identical providers of "web page updates", then the maximum you can charge would end up close to how much of your time it takes to run the script, and the customer would get to keep the surplus value.

If you are in a position to get away with value-based pricing, then you have to be careful to keep your costs secret, because otherwise you make people irrationally angry about being ripped off.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#420

Post by auserperson »

Qwertious wrote: post #357
contravariant wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tu quoque isn't a valid argument. More importantly it implies you actually do think his behaviour is unethical.

It's basically the "robbing a thief" argument - it's not stealing, because the loot wasn't theirs in the first place.

Not exactly as well. It's more of robbing a thief back a percentage of what a thief stole from you. aka. the surplus value.
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