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My own private basic income

opendemocracy.net

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Re: My own private basic income

#141

Post by vilmosi »

nql wrote: post #88
vilmosi wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apparently going to high school, studying and passing the SAT, applying and being accepted into university, studying, passing, and graduating university is just luck. I genuinely thought you were sarcastic. Being born in circumstances that allow you to do that is luck, even in the developed world.

Its only luck if you consider every person independent of their ancestors, rather than a product of their ancestors.

Well yes, I consider who your ancestors are as part of being lucky, as you don't do anything to deserve who your ancestors are. What would you call it?

Re: My own private basic income

#142

Post by hk__2 »

weberc2 wrote: post #134
hk__2 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which it doesn’t.

It does in many very poor nations. What's the significance of the $1 figure anyway? Whose point hinges on this number?

> What's the significance of the $1 figure anyway?

This article gives a bit of background about that figure: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17312819

Re: My own private basic income

#143

Post by xxSparkleSxx »

drewcon wrote: post #96
opportune wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't disagree more. As a society (and this goes from a community to a global scale) we should make it a priority to give everyone the resources to meet their maximum potential. I don't mean that we should give everyone a million dollars to invest of their own. What I mean is that we should ensure that everyone gets provided with a good education and food/water/shelter, etc. The author specifically mentions the…

> keep people poor, underfed, and uneducated so that they will always be a cheap source of grunt labor. Poor, underfed, and uneducated is the default position for human beings. We were born into this world, as a species, with nothing. There is no conspiracy to "enslave" anyone, nearly all public health and wealth measures over the last 100 years are overwhelming up and to the right. That growth did not happened throu…

>We were born into this world, as a species, with nothing.

Some people are born with nothing, others are born with just about everything. Many laws, regulations, etc exist so that JUST existing with nothing is not feasible.

It is nigh impossible to live in this world like the birds do, flying from one food source to the next, roosting wherever you find comfort. Those with means have entire departments to police the underclass off of their property and setup obstacles to make sure riff-raff does not even get on the public property next to their private property (just look at how public transport is set up in big cities).

We protect those with means, ensuring those without cannot even live without selling their labor. Die or work. It's a little like slavery (I KNOW there are large differences between traditional slavery), you must be able to see that?

>but through the slow accumulation of societal benefits, over time, across an open market economy.

Pretty sure most of the improvements we have made for the common man, at least in the US, have come at the behest of those born with nothing standing up and saying "we won't work unless the rewards are distributed better/we get a 40 hour work week/we get cleaner and less dangerous work conditions/etc."

>It is not and will never be "fair", there will never be equality of outcomes,

No one wants equality of outcomes, equality of outcomes would not seem fair to most people. Instead we want equality of opportunity.

We can improve, most of us know it, and even though most improvement will only effect our kids or grandkids, I will still keep bitching that we need to improve until we're AS GREAT AS WE CAN BE.

Re: My own private basic income

#145

Post by notadoc »

erentz wrote: post #70

Wow I am astounded that all the comments so far are trying to tear down this person and what he is saying, and very transparently because there seems to be something threatening about this idea that he got where he has through luck. Why do people find this idea so threatening? I got where I am today due to luck. I did work hard. But I know other people who work hard too. Who are just as capable. They just didn't get…

> something threatening about this idea that he got where he has through luck. Why do people find this idea so threatening?

Ego, mostly.

Re: My own private basic income

#146

Post by Mz »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #128
Mz wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That varies depending on time and place. There were islands in the Caribbean (IIRC) where slaves had a life expectancy of 3 years after arriving from Africa. After importations of slaves were banned, but slavery was not outlawed, the slave population was shrinking. Births could not keep up with deaths. Though, tbf, some of what I read about that surmised that slaves had to be using some form of birth control as well…

Yes, I believe slave populations suffered horrific death rates almost everywhere in the new world except for the US south, where they flourished. That was seen as a major problem by slaveholders, though, not a feature. If they'd known how to stop the slaves from dying, they would have.

Yes, I suppose so. That probably falls under "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity."

Sorry, I wasn't looking to shoot you down. I read some very interesting research into this some years ago and I basically participate here to get some chance to talk with people.

Re: My own private basic income

#147

Post by notadoc »

Sodman wrote: post #25
MichaelRenor wrote: post #14

> My first big lucky break happened in 2009 when Georgetown University hired me as a philosophy professor on their campus in Qatar Apparently going to high school, studying and passing the SAT, applying and being accepted into university, studying, passing, and graduating university is just luck. Have we we reached peak luck yet? Is there nothing ever we can do to improve our circumstances and our lives? This is like…

Being born into circumstances that even enable you to accomplish all of the above definitely falls into the category of luck, in my opinion. Eg if you're born to wealthier parents, you likely have more time in the evenings/weekends to study, which makes all of the above easier than say, if you were born to a poorer family and had to work 20-40 hours / week to contribute to your family's income. Next, being born with…

> Being born into circumstances that even enable you to accomplish all of the above definitely falls into the category of luck, in my opinion.

Bingo, you get it.

Re: My own private basic income

#148

Post by AnimalMuppet »

cortesoft wrote: post #58
maerF0x0 wrote: post #6

> I lucked into money. The basic point is that he gets paid more whilst not doing more "work". For those whom "Work" is the only lever they use to convert into money, they see inequitable work:cash ratios as "unfair" (a morality statement). Market economies do not function on work, but on value. He did the same work in a high value scenario. A glass of water provided in the middle of a developed city is worthless and…

You are totally ignoring the crux of his argument, which is centered on ownership; how we decide who owns what, how we tax owned things versus earned-through-work things, and how we tax the things people do with what they own. Yes, a piece of property earns rent because it has 'value' to someone else; however, who gets to earn that value? At some point, this piece of land was 'unowned', and then someone came along an…

There aren't many people earning money as rentiers of unimproved land. But it turns out that people are much more willing to make improvements when they have secure title to the land.

But who gets to rent out the apartment building? Well, the one who put an apartment building there, that's who. Why should anyone else get to?

Re: My own private basic income

#149

Post by mod »

wturner wrote: post #137
j2bax wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference is Oprah provides a little value to a lot of people (whether it be therapeutic, entertainment or what have you). Collectively, she is providing a lot more "value" because of the platform and distribution she has achieved. Your garbage collector provides great value to you, but no value to the grand majority of people.

My point was that each garbage collector is more valuable to the person paying for them than Oprah Winfrey is, but Oprah makes hundreds of millions of dollars and the garbage collector makes a typical wage. I understand the reasoning that Oprah provides a little value that is distributed to a lot of people and that the garbage industry in its totality is more valuable than Oprah. With all that, I still think it's a b…

I think it's painfully obvious that Oprah provides more value than one garbage man, so I don't see the disconnect.

Also your above comment even says that "to the person paying them."

I pay Oprah and the garbage man, respectively, what they're worth to me.

I guess it hurts your feelings that Oprah has more value than your local garbage man, but it's just a fact.

You can probably come up with the reasons yourself: personality, name recognition, how easily replaced, etc.

Re: My own private basic income

#150

Post by notadoc »

greedo wrote: post #22

Ignoring the logical fallacies the author makes, one thing jumped out at me. He's not buying the average home in South Bend. If he's only paying $180/year in property tax, the assessed value of his average home is around $9K. A quick look at Google shows the median price (from Zillow, so a grain of salt is recommended) of $65K. If he and his brother are buying up $9K homes, his average mortgage is under $50/month. I'…

You can easily manage to find great cap rates in much of the midwest and south, and parts of the NE.
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