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Wikileaks reveals CIA's Elsa: a geo-location malware for WiFi / Windows

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Re: Wikileaks reveals CIA's Elsa: a geo-location malware for WiFi / Windows

#21

Post by SomeStupidPoint »

willstrafach wrote: post #17
SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Wikileaks is now in the policy of filtering documents and release timings to shape a narrative? I seem to recall that their claim to fame was that they were above trying to manipulate the narrative and simply dumped documents when they got them. Why should we trust a cabal of people who are not telling us the full scope of the situation, and instead filtering what we know based on their desire to shape our opinion…

If they are trying to filter something, they are doing a pretty awful job. Everything released so far in Vault 7 appears to simply be a dump of intelligence collection tradecraft/methods.

As a purely hypothetical example:

*

The vault7 trove could contain documents on CIA minimization and targeting rules, which show that they carefully avoid US targets and only go for high value targets with these tools, and further could contain mostly exploits targeted at industrial/military targets.

Wikileaks has focused on how they could use the (selectively) released tools to target civilians.

By selecting to release only tools that (could) target civilian appliances, hiding the fact that most tools are built for, eg, industrial/military targets, and that CIA procedures focus on industrial/military targets, Wikileaks effectively shapes the narrative to be about how the CIA is targeting civilians, when the reality is that they're targeting high value, perfectly appropriate things (which just happen to occasionally use technology others do as well).

*

Sowing that kind of distrust between US civilians and one of their intel agencies would be a perfectly normal PSYOPs goal, and in-line with what you'd expect from, eg, RT.

That Wikileaks has decided to editorialize their content in such a way means that you now need to evaluate those kinds of scenarios when thinking about the things they release, instead of just focusing on the content. It reduces their brand value significantly.

Re: Wikileaks reveals CIA's Elsa: a geo-location malware for WiFi / Windows

#22

Post by nyolfen »

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #14
nyolfen wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

vault7 has been announced and partially released, but wikileaks has been releasing a trickle of new documents over time (it seems they learned from the strategic timing of snowden release documents); these documents are new to the public. they seem to release new documents from the vault7 trove every week or two.

So Wikileaks is now in the policy of filtering documents and release timings to shape a narrative? I seem to recall that their claim to fame was that they were above trying to manipulate the narrative and simply dumped documents when they got them. Why should we trust a cabal of people who are not telling us the full scope of the situation, and instead filtering what we know based on their desire to shape our opinion…

i think the idea is more that they want to keep it in the headlines for a matter of months instead of a single day. the juiciest stuff was in the initial release, anyway.

Re: Wikileaks reveals CIA's Elsa: a geo-location malware for WiFi / Windows

#23

Post by willstrafach »

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #21
willstrafach wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are trying to filter something, they are doing a pretty awful job. Everything released so far in Vault 7 appears to simply be a dump of intelligence collection tradecraft/methods.

As a purely hypothetical example: * The vault7 trove could contain documents on CIA minimization and targeting rules, which show that they carefully avoid US targets and only go for high value targets with these tools, and further could contain mostly exploits targeted at industrial/military targets. Wikileaks has focused on how they could use the (selectively) released tools to target civilians. By selecting to rele…

You make a good point regarding what they might be trying to do. But do you think many people are actually buying it? Anyone could think of malicious uses for all sorts of things, the only noteworthy revelations would be actual proof of misuse.

Re: Wikileaks reveals CIA's Elsa: a geo-location malware for WiFi / Windows

#24

Post by willstrafach »

xzel wrote: post #20
willstrafach wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I am not sure I understand the analogy?

He's saying for some simple jobs you don't want to use a more complex too because there could be consequences. In this context, you don't need to use a fancy exploit that could get into the wild, lead to discovery and be blocked from other targets, or whatever else, when you can use something as simple as this exploit.

Got it, thank you! I was not trying to criticize this piece of software, just had thought it might be worth mentioning in case folks were curious (As past Vault7 releases had indeed made mention of exploits used).

Re: Wikileaks reveals CIA's Elsa: a geo-location malware for WiFi / Windows

#26

Post by oval-atom »

willstrafach wrote: post #13
mmjaa wrote: post #6

To me, these stories are a) vital, and b) dis-heartening, and c) demonstrative of the fact that we need to continue to build better, open and secure, operating systems and tools for end users. I think there is definitely something to be said for the fact that if the CIA is doing this, then criminals are too - since the fine line between what the CIA does and what a criminal does is simply, a sheet of paper with someo…

I am curious as to what you believe the CIA is supposed to be doing?

I doubt they have a clue.....disillusioned into idea that we are in a utopian world.

Re: Wikileaks reveals CIA's Elsa: a geo-location malware for WiFi / Windows

#27

Post by SomeStupidPoint »

willstrafach wrote: post #23
SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a purely hypothetical example: * The vault7 trove could contain documents on CIA minimization and targeting rules, which show that they carefully avoid US targets and only go for high value targets with these tools, and further could contain mostly exploits targeted at industrial/military targets. Wikileaks has focused on how they could use the (selectively) released tools to target civilians. By selecting to rele…

You make a good point regarding what they might be trying to do. But do you think many people are actually buying it? Anyone could think of malicious uses for all sorts of things, the only noteworthy revelations would be actual proof of misuse.

> Anyone could think of malicious uses for all sorts of things, the only noteworthy revelations would be actual proof of misuse.

Does this same logic apply to the vault7 trove itself?

The entire leak is basically "Spy agency has capability to spy. Yawn." once you take away the angle of "Oooo! Spooky! They might target you!"

So we're already in the case that Wikileaks is trying to editorialize the content for an agenda, which we know is to cause damage to the US intel community. (They haven't been friends for a long time, in well documented ways.)

We also know that Wikileaks is withholding the full extent of what they know or not, and are choosing what to reveal (which is a tactic well know to be used to shape narratives).

Why should we care what Wikileaks has to say on this matter, for the exact reason you so helpfully pointed out?

They're a biased source, not disclosing their full knowledge and seeking to manipulate us, who haven't actually shown any evidence of wrong-doing.

Re: Wikileaks reveals CIA's Elsa: a geo-location malware for WiFi / Windows

#28

Post by willstrafach »

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #27
willstrafach wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a good point regarding what they might be trying to do. But do you think many people are actually buying it? Anyone could think of malicious uses for all sorts of things, the only noteworthy revelations would be actual proof of misuse.

> Anyone could think of malicious uses for all sorts of things, the only noteworthy revelations would be actual proof of misuse. Does this same logic apply to the vault7 trove itself? The entire leak is basically "Spy agency has capability to spy. Yawn. " once you take away the angle of "Oooo! Spooky! They might target you !" So we're already in the case that Wikileaks is trying to editorialize the content for an age…

You might be missing that I do fully agree with you. I guess if it is out there anyway though, makes some sense for there to be discussion on HN as it is a technical forum. Probably safe to skip their "analysis" and only pay mind to the source document.

Re: Wikileaks reveals CIA's Elsa: a geo-location malware for WiFi / Windows

#30

Post by norgie »

mmjaa wrote: post #6

To me, these stories are a) vital, and b) dis-heartening, and c) demonstrative of the fact that we need to continue to build better, open and secure, operating systems and tools for end users. I think there is definitely something to be said for the fact that if the CIA is doing this, then criminals are too - since the fine line between what the CIA does and what a criminal does is simply, a sheet of paper with someo…

> For those of us not living under the CIA's nefarious shadow

The CIA's mission is foreign intelligence meaning they operate outside the US. Since it sounds like you're not in the US, you are far more likely to be targeted by the CIA (still very unlikely unless you work for a government) than people living in the US.

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