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Ask HN: As an employee of a company, how do you assess its health?

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Re: Ask HN: As an employee of a company, how do you assess its health?

#101

Post by fao_ »

arien wrote: post #89
fnbr wrote: post #67

There's a great article on this topic from Steve Blank: https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear... He argues that a leading indicator is when free food/drinks are removed, as it's a sign that the company is moving from a growth, "we're all in it together" mentality to a cost-cutting one. I, personally, focus on who's getting promoted and who's leaving. If a company is promoting internally and ret…

When I read things like this, I like to take a moment to realise how fortunate we are to work in a sector where something like freebies is almost considered to be a sacred right. Is there any other profession or sector where they get the same treatment? I don't think removing or reducing these benefits is a sign of poor health. I think it's more a sign of turning into a proper business (which needs to answer to the p…

> I like to take a moment to realise how fortunate we are to work in a sector where something like freebies is almost considered to be a sacred right.

Bear in mind that, most programmers do not get paid overtime, and are expected to work like horses. The reason freebies are sacred rights are because those are, in part, the unofficial payment for working in such conditions.

Re: Ask HN: As an employee of a company, how do you assess its health?

#102

Post by wand3r »

gwbas1c wrote: post #87

TLDR: You assess health by if you're getting paid what you think it's worth to stay in the job. If you're okay with the pay, and you like the job, be a pro and stay as long as the pay comes in. A big warning sign was that my employer interview great candidates, make offers, and then the candidate didn't accept. The problem was that we weren't paying competitively. I tried to express this to upper management, and then…

> There's a lot to be said for sticking through a few months of uncertainty when it works out to be a great job in the long run.

Great point considering the OP is talking about startups-- where the likelihood of failure is high. If you have another great opportunity, of course weigh it, but uncertainty is a constant in startups & tech. The idiom "the devil you know vs the devil you don't". I started at a company that looked great from the outside but once I started it was clear that 70% of the people who wrote the bloody codebase had quit or been fired very recently.

You realize quickly that most people don't know what their doing; the good people admit they are learning on the fly. So totally agree with your point, and to add to it, you are weighing your insider knowledge of your firm against your perception of others-- inside those other firms people are likely doing the same thing and probably even looking at you with envy.

Re: Ask HN: As an employee of a company, how do you assess its health?

#103

Post by vinceguidry »

scarface74 wrote: post #77

I've given another answer, but on the meta level, it shouldn't matter to you if a company is doing well. The only thing that should matter is are you learning skills for which there is a market? Getting in the mindset that your "job" does not determine your well being but your skills do. That mindset presupposes a few things: A) that you always have your finger on the market and the skills that are in demand B) your…

Certainly, your skills provide a layer of security, ensuring that you don't starve. But once you have this, and it's really not that hard to do once you have a few years in your industry, then you need to start on the next safety net of ensuring you don't get ripped away from your daily routine at a moment's notice.

This is where keeping a finger on what your organization is doing really helps out with. If you can do this well, then you're not just inured to sudden shocks in income, but you can also thrive in uncertainty.

For example, if I caught wind that the company was being reorganized, I'd have a closed-door meeting with my manager to figure out what my exposure was and what opportunities are presented. Perhaps there's a way to help the organization and myself at the same time. Not every such situation has to result in chaos.

Re: Ask HN: As an employee of a company, how do you assess its health?

#104

Post by johnpython »

scarface74 wrote: post #77

I've given another answer, but on the meta level, it shouldn't matter to you if a company is doing well. The only thing that should matter is are you learning skills for which there is a market? Getting in the mindset that your "job" does not determine your well being but your skills do. That mindset presupposes a few things: A) that you always have your finger on the market and the skills that are in demand B) your…

I completely agree with this approach. The best job security is being good at what you do. Fortunately, we work in an industry where if you are even slightly talented, you will have no trouble finding a new job. So, don't worry too much about how the company is doing. Stick around as long as you are getting paid, the work is interesting, and you are growing in your knowledge/skills. Ensure you have savings for any disasters. And always be scouting the market for new opportunities.

Re: Ask HN: As an employee of a company, how do you assess its health?

#105

Post by urethrafranklin »

arien wrote: post #89
fnbr wrote: post #67

There's a great article on this topic from Steve Blank: https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear... He argues that a leading indicator is when free food/drinks are removed, as it's a sign that the company is moving from a growth, "we're all in it together" mentality to a cost-cutting one. I, personally, focus on who's getting promoted and who's leaving. If a company is promoting internally and ret…

When I read things like this, I like to take a moment to realise how fortunate we are to work in a sector where something like freebies is almost considered to be a sacred right. Is there any other profession or sector where they get the same treatment? I don't think removing or reducing these benefits is a sign of poor health. I think it's more a sign of turning into a proper business (which needs to answer to the p…

Couldn't disagree more. With this mindset why not throw all your employees in a basement and stack them up on picnic tables? If you're not scrimping on every possible front, you're not a proper business?

There are plenty of sectors that have nice offices with snacks and drinks, by the way.

It's always better to invest in growth than to fake it by shaving the budget. When human niceties start getting pared away, it's a sign that growth opportunities aren't working out.

Re: Ask HN: As an employee of a company, how do you assess its health?

#107

Post by kzisme »

just4themoney wrote: post #99
kzisme wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard of a bonus being awarded (or a signing bonus of sorts when first starting being given) Being my first FT position after finishing school I wasn't sure what to expect for reviews/raises/etc.

When people get raises and/or bonuses it's usually not announced publicly. If your a jr software engineer you should be having regularly scheduled performance reviews. Everyone should be having at least yearly performance review and salary increase (unless you don't deserve a raise, I guess). You shouldn't be going a year and a half without a raise. Push for a review, insist you need formal feedback on your performan…

I see - a few times in the past bonuses have been announced if "x occurs".

Yeah I'll bring it up - I'm not sure how "important" it is compared to other day-to-day meetings and such with managers, but hopefully they can find time for it.

Thanks for all the input thus far I appreciate it.

Re: Ask HN: As an employee of a company, how do you assess its health?

#108

Post by zelos »

kogepathic wrote: post #71
kzisme wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often do salary reviews generally occur for someone working as a developer (or IT I suppose?)

> How often do salary reviews generally occur for someone working as a developer (or IT I suppose?) It's served me well to have at least one interview per year with a different company in your field to see what they're offering. Doing this has really helped me understand what the market is willing to pay for my skills, and has more than once caused me to shift the direction of my career because the work they were doi…

> It's served me well to have at least one interview per year with a different company

That sounds like really good advice: finding out what's out there, getting interview experience and stopping that "fear of change" feeling you can end up with when you work for one company for a long time.

Re: Ask HN: As an employee of a company, how do you assess its health?

#109

Post by lmm »

arien wrote: post #89
fnbr wrote: post #67

There's a great article on this topic from Steve Blank: https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear... He argues that a leading indicator is when free food/drinks are removed, as it's a sign that the company is moving from a growth, "we're all in it together" mentality to a cost-cutting one. I, personally, focus on who's getting promoted and who's leaving. If a company is promoting internally and ret…

When I read things like this, I like to take a moment to realise how fortunate we are to work in a sector where something like freebies is almost considered to be a sacred right. Is there any other profession or sector where they get the same treatment? I don't think removing or reducing these benefits is a sign of poor health. I think it's more a sign of turning into a proper business (which needs to answer to the p…

> I don't think removing or reducing these benefits is a sign of poor health. I think it's more a sign of turning into a proper business (which needs to answer to the people who put the money to buy all these drinks in the first place), which isn't for everyone, but it doesn't _have_ to be a bad sign.

Free drinks are incredibly cheap compared to buying the same results through paying higher salaries. Losing them is a sign that the company cares more about fitting into the herd than being effective, which has to be a bad sign.

Re: Ask HN: As an employee of a company, how do you assess its health?

#110

Post by bungie4 »

wand3r wrote: post #93
bungie4 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. After being sold and resold, aqui-hired etc, I can attest to the accuracy of these observations. You'd do well to remember this post.

If you were caught off guard (and wouldn't mind sharing) what was an anecdote that in retrospect you realized was an obvious red flag?

5 months prior being offered to relo to another city within the same company - and nobody else was. At the time, I was looking after my mom who had cancer. My manager, without saying anything, was trying to help me.

I declined as moving her would have meant undo hardship (doctors etc). He pressured me hard to take it though.

I went on vacation for a two week motorcycle trip (my gf was looking after mom, giving me a break, god bless her!) and logged into FB to find all my co-workers had been terminated. I received no notice, so I continued on my vacation. Upon return, I went to work as expected only to find myself locked out.

Hindsight. My manager was a class guy and knew what I was going through and tried his best to help me while honouring his commitments to the company.

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