Earlier quoted context omitted.
>why approve it? It is automatic, there is no human oversight to it as far as i know.
What is the point of it then?
To extract $14 per visitor.
Author of cURL denied entry to the USA
181–190 of 335 posts
Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA
#182This may be unpopular on an US-centric site like HN, but the US looks more and more like they want to isolate themselves from the rest of the world: very strict immigration policy, travelers molested by TSA on airports, ... These conferences where people around the world meet should start to be hosted somewhere else. Not in the USA anymore. Somewhere in a country that welcomes people instead of treating all of them l…
The US has generally been quite isolationist. Both before WW1 and before WW2 there were really strong isolationist currents in US politics. I think that it's part of the "Chine syndrome": they're big, kind of isolated and mostly self-sufficient (or perceive themselves to be so). People seem to have forgotten that the US opening during and after WW2 turned the US into the world's #1 super power. I guess it's hard to l…
While it is true US foreign policy favored isolationism pre-WWII, calling current restrictions on immigration into the US "isolationist" is a conflation of the term. The US maintains a global military presence and there is no evidence this will change until another state actor (or a coalition of state actors) forcibly shrinks the US global footprint. In George Friedman's book, "The Next 100 Years" the central theme to current US foreign policy is that, as a global super power, the US will actively seek to destabilize regions of the world that threaten its interests now and in the future. That simple guideline can help to understand the lionshare of American foreign policy decisions post WWII and is of course, not an isolationist policy whatsoever.
Edit: spelling of Friedman
Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA
#183This may be unpopular on an US-centric site like HN, but the US looks more and more like they want to isolate themselves from the rest of the world: very strict immigration policy, travelers molested by TSA on airports, ... These conferences where people around the world meet should start to be hosted somewhere else. Not in the USA anymore. Somewhere in a country that welcomes people instead of treating all of them l…
I propose the Bahamas as the new location to do meetups, it's close to the US, has casinos, good conference rooms, it's a tax haven, AND the Hearthstone's World Championship will be done there. Blizzard must have chosen that location for a reason.. Other than that, sad for Daniel. This is madness =(
How do you get there? USA requires visa even for transfers, and most flights to the Bahamas originate or stop over in the USA, bringing the issue back to square 1.
Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA
#184This may be unpopular on an US-centric site like HN, but the US looks more and more like they want to isolate themselves from the rest of the world: very strict immigration policy, travelers molested by TSA on airports, ... These conferences where people around the world meet should start to be hosted somewhere else. Not in the USA anymore. Somewhere in a country that welcomes people instead of treating all of them l…
I've also been thinking that the world needs to begin banning American software.
We already know that the totalitarian government that it's becoming is a threat to the privacy and rights of people worldwide. Avoid censorship and surveillance. Look for and build alternatives.
Nothing better to change deep rooted policy rot than economics?
Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like I am repeating myself. When ESTA was introduced, only a single requirement was added: "You need to fill out that online form". Somehow, the eligibility was determined before it was introduced. The things you list (nationality, passport validity, ...) are all easily checked before boarding by airlines. This happens everywhere in the world, for all kinds of destinations. An online form is not a reliable way…
Yes, somehow eligibility was determined before ESTA existed. Now ESTA exists, and ESTA is the thing that determines eligibility. I do not see how this is relevant in any way, or even what it is you are trying to tell me I'm wrong about, because every time I tell you how the system works you go running off to some irrelevant other thing. Please either explain clearly what point you are trying to make, or stop.
This sounds like something Gogolian bureaucrats would say. "The purpose of filling out form A38 is to have form A38 filled out." Modern bureaucracy usually doesn't introduce requirements for the heck of it. Checking citizenship worked fine before the introduction of ESTA so "checking citizenship" was not the reason the system was introduced or is still in place. It does that as well but that is not the point of ESTA. This is all I wanted to tell you.
Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA
#186Recently EU parliament voted to introduce visas for US citizens due to unequal treatment of EU countries. "About f ing time", I though. Few months pass and I read that EU Commission will do nothing*. I hate those bureaucrats in the EU. EU should retaliate (not of malice, just to force equal treatment). It's not a visa waiver if you can be denied entry so easily, as many people are. And of course not all EU countries…
I understand your sentiment and the reaction. But I think it would be wrong to have an eye-for-eye-approach. US Citizens should see, how easy it can be to travel to a country, without jumping through hoops like ESTA. They should feel wrong why they force it onto others but enjoy the freedom to travel easily. Otherwise nothing will change. It's easy to start a "oh, they do it to us, let's annoy them even more" spiral…
this is not eye-for-an-eye, it is fair and equal treatment. if that somebody is behaving like an asshole, most people including me will not just keep pardoning that somebody forever with big smile on our faces.
this is how law works, this is how companies, states and societies work.
Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Americans, especially outside overcrowded urban areas , are courteous, helpful, hospitable people that are very tolerant of other people and ideas . Do you care to elaborate on this? That's incongruent with voting records.
I don't mind elaborating. I need to know which parts of the American voting record concerns you to be specific though. I will say that America is very diverse. Various states and postal codes have wildly different attitudes about things and very few Americans want to change or homogenize that.
For instance: I know that Texas is a red state but was quite surprised to find out that the largest urban centres are actually blue. And it seems that this trend follows all along the country, large urbanised areas are blue (even in red states) while the countryside votes more for the GOP, meaning a more conservative worldview (and that clashes with the statement "courteous, helpful, hospitable people that are very tolerant of other people and ideas".
I understand that people from the countryside can be seen as kinder towards people they like but my impression is that hatred and prejudice is much more prevalent there... So care to elaborate if my impression is wrong?
Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA
#188This may be unpopular on an US-centric site like HN, but the US looks more and more like they want to isolate themselves from the rest of the world: very strict immigration policy, travelers molested by TSA on airports, ... These conferences where people around the world meet should start to be hosted somewhere else. Not in the USA anymore. Somewhere in a country that welcomes people instead of treating all of them l…
> This may be unpopular on an US-centric site like HN, but the US looks more and more like they want to isolate themselves from the rest of the world: very strict immigration policy, travelers molested by TSA on airports, ... Almost all Americans think this sort of thing is nonsense. But the average American has little standing to hold the American bureaucracy accountable for its nonsense. Americans, especially outsi…
> Almost all Americans think this sort of thing is nonsense. But the average American has little standing to hold the American bureaucracy accountable for its nonsense.
True. But you can not organise conferences in the USA. You can tell your employers that holding meetings in the USA is bad. etc.
Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA
#189Recently EU parliament voted to introduce visas for US citizens due to unequal treatment of EU countries. "About f ing time", I though. Few months pass and I read that EU Commission will do nothing*. I hate those bureaucrats in the EU. EU should retaliate (not of malice, just to force equal treatment). It's not a visa waiver if you can be denied entry so easily, as many people are. And of course not all EU countries…
I understand your sentiment and the reaction. But I think it would be wrong to have an eye-for-eye-approach. US Citizens should see, how easy it can be to travel to a country, without jumping through hoops like ESTA. They should feel wrong why they force it onto others but enjoy the freedom to travel easily. Otherwise nothing will change. It's easy to start a "oh, they do it to us, let's annoy them even more" spiral…
I agree about not participating in eye-for-an-eye. However I disagree that the US Citzens will percieve their smooth entry experiences with reported obstructive from others. Mainly because most people don't hear about such things, that such events are relatively rare, and that they happen to The Other (literally foreigners).
In other words, we shouldn't only expect to rely on the guilt of having a pain free experience to make different others have less pain.
I'm not sure how one can improve things, but if it gets worse, they should notice things when conference delegates are barred from attending.
Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
No one should be held responsible for a fact that causes damage without direct involvement. The legal system uses `iuris personae` and limited liability precisely for this. Distinguishing a natural person from a legal person in this case is contrary to the purpose of the laws in force. Each tool can be used for good and for evil: risk management is primarily used to hedge against the risk of a contingent, uncertain l…
He wasn't denied entry into the US. He was denied access to a fast track system for entry into the US, so he has to use the slow, annoying, more methodical way. It certainly sucks, but your summary of the US legal system is irrelevant.
My purpose was not to criticise your comment, but to offer a starting point for reflection. It is not a secret that (in recent years) the number of people subject to more stringent authorisation procedures are constantly increasing, and this without counting the no-fly.
Having been a great admirer of the US, I can say that what I admire are some principles, principles that seem forgotten. They are probably forgotten because when you teach a CBP employee to look for only the worst of people, this will eventually find something suspicious in anyone.
The recent run into exploiting software vulnerabilities could explain why there’s a focus on developers/hackers. But just putting a critique is not constructive, remembering where we come from, what are our principles, why we have them, and their purpose, is much better to motivate why it's wrong to "discriminate" someone.
It's not just slow and annoying, it's wrong because he’s not responsible.