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By installing NAT, MIT stifles innovation

blog.achernya.com

171–180 of 188 posts

Re: By installing NAT, MIT stifles innovation

#171
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what the problem is. The IPv6 address space is so large it doesn't matter at all.

Isn't that what they once said about IPv4 when they were divvying it up?

Orders of Magnitude are completely different, of course. When MIT got it's /8, (one of just 255 available), it gave them the ability to create 2^16 networks with just 254 hosts on each one.

Now, anyone who wants to can ask for a /48, and they are automatically given it, and they are able to create 2^16 networks, each network with an effectively infinite number of hosts on it. And, there are so many /48s on the (current) Global Unicast space (prefixes starting with 001), that everyone on earth could be granted 4000 of them. And, in reality, ISPs started already conserving, and handing out /56s instead of /48s to most consumers/SoHo - further increasing that number by 255x.

And that's just the 001 prefix. Based on what we learn about allocating space there, new policies can be device for the other 6 prefixes available. We aren't going to run out of IPv6 address space.

Re: By installing NAT, MIT stifles innovation

#172

My college didn't have internet campus wise, you had access to a limited, firewalled internet "protected" by Fortinet so i can't feel empathy for the MIT alumni since you can perfectly work without those tools.

Sorry that your college doesn't see Internet access the same way MIT does. But don't you think that by making its campus network more unnecessarily restrictive, MIT is setting a bad example?

No op , i am happy my uni does not see the internet as MIT does and acts far more responsibly.

MIT by holding one to class A address block for so long have sets a bad example. Much of the 16million address owned by them are never really used. How many other universities have access to this kind of wasted luxury ? Standford returned theirs back ages years ago.

Sure IPv6 was inevitable but if ford, MIT and rest had not been so greedy the rest of the world would have not grown up beind a NATed internet. I share an ip with 1000's of others, every third google search throws up a captcha..

Re: By installing NAT, MIT stifles innovation

#174

I moved to student housing in Sweden in 2004 when they had aging network infrastructure (all 100 MBit but that also applied to the shared links to the housing areas[0]), and by the next year they just ditched the school-sponsored network and moved to making students pay for third party internet (distribution to rooms was still Ethernet-based but now with a citywide fiber backhaul run by the municipal power company sh…

Do you have to pay $10 per server you set up? Also, by acting as the ISP, it also gets to be more protective of its log data than an outside provider might be. It's not that an outside ISP couldn't provide the same level of service and speed at the same or less cost, while protecting the interests of the MIT community, it's just that I don't expect it's as likely.

I don't recall the pricing for extra IPs but it was probably something like that. I just had a stack of servers built out of donated parts in my dorm room hosting different services on VHosts. At one point I was pushing 3 TB/mo in outgoing bandwidth on that $10/mo plan.

Re: By installing NAT, MIT stifles innovation

#175
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with amounts of addresses, and everything to do with making dividing stuff up for routing easier. A large ISP entity like comcast or AT&T can now have say a single /16 or /24 allocation and pretty much no matter how much they subdivide up their regional routing, routing to AT&T can easily be coalesced and summarized , and every end customer can still get a /64 till pretty much the end of time.

Sometimes I wonder if we'll have an IPv6 shortage eventually. There aren't all that many /16 networks to go around.

The difference is that very, very few organizations require blocks that enormous in IPv6. And the ones that do will most likely never need to ask for more. (For comparison, Comcast, the largest home ISP in the US, has a /20.) But in IPv4, a /16 (or smaller blocks adding up to one) is nothing for even a mid-sized ISP.

Also, the allocation policies are much different. In IPv4, allocations are made to being as small as possible (while still meeting immediate needs) in order to conserve addresses. The cost is that the routing table grows like crazy, since network operators need to keep coming back year after year (or sooner) to get more address blocks.

In IPv6, allocations are made to cover the network operator's long-term needs so that they won't have to get a second, non-contiguous block. By "wasting" address space you cut down on routing table size, since even very large networks only need to announce a small number of routes.

Even with this "waste", we've only allocated a tiny amount of IPv6 space. None of the RIRs have had to go back to IANA for new IPv6 space since 2006[1], even with allocations ramping up in the last few years. (And IANA only gives the RIRs a /12 at a time.) We seem to be fine for the foreseeable future.

But even if somehow we do start using up too much v6 address space, the good news is we can always change allocation practices. Let's say in 2040 we realize we've used up way more of the IPv6 space than we expected we would by then. The RIRs can always change their policies, favoring conservation over smaller routing tables like they used to with IPv4. I seriously doubt that will happen within any timeframe we can reasonably make predictions about, but if it does, we'd have a lot more flexibility than we did with IPv4 depletion.

[1] https://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv6-unicast-address-assign...

Re: By installing NAT, MIT stifles innovation

#176
post #125
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried 4 different AP vendors (Asus, TP-Link, Cisco) and Comcast did not play nice with them. Random disconnects all the time. Only Google's worked without a hitch. But alas, no IPv6. (I'm busy and don't have time to deal with this BS. I just need internet access that works.)

That isn't what Aloha was getting at, why is a layer 2 device (in this case a WiFi AP) even interacting with IP addressing? You should be able to run whatever you want, whether that be IPv4, IPv6, or your own custom protocol using raw ethernet frames (of which there are quite a few). Also, what is this whole "Comcast did not play nice with them" trope? I've dealt with Comcast many times, and used Asus, TP-Link, Cisco…

So at home my Comcast connection works fine with most modems and routers without any problems.

At my startup's house:

- Using the Comcast default combined modem+router works.

- Using the Google Wifi AP with a DPC3010 resulted in the DPC3010 being bricked upon connecting to the cable line. This is after the DPC3010 was working fine at my home. That DPC3010 no longer works, even at home, and only gets a power light upon startup.

- Using the Google Wifi AP with a TP-Link modem works flawlessly. No IPv6 though.

- 3 other routers that work at home do not work at my startup's house with the TP-Link modem. Asus RT router gets a fake 10. address from Comcast, Xiaomi router stops responding after several hours, Cisco router gets no DHCP lease whatsoever. All three work at home, all flawlessly.

Comcast is unwilling to debug, saying that unless I use their official combined modem+router they will not provide support.

Re: By installing NAT, MIT stifles innovation

#177
post #125
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried 4 different AP vendors (Asus, TP-Link, Cisco) and Comcast did not play nice with them. Random disconnects all the time. Only Google's worked without a hitch. But alas, no IPv6. (I'm busy and don't have time to deal with this BS. I just need internet access that works.)

That isn't what Aloha was getting at, why is a layer 2 device (in this case a WiFi AP) even interacting with IP addressing? You should be able to run whatever you want, whether that be IPv4, IPv6, or your own custom protocol using raw ethernet frames (of which there are quite a few). Also, what is this whole "Comcast did not play nice with them" trope? I've dealt with Comcast many times, and used Asus, TP-Link, Cisco…

[deleted]

Re: By installing NAT, MIT stifles innovation

#178
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running a server isn't demoing something cool in biology, coming up with something cool to demo in deep learning, or starting a blog. If these people are going to spend their time doing innovation in biology, hacking on deep learning, or writing about physics, they shouldn't be spending their time running a server or configuring IP.

Why not? It's 2017, and it's super-easy to spin up a server and code something cool to demo something you did in any of these fields. Or spin up an MVP of a random product idea you have. Never tell anyone that "they should not be doing something" when they want to. That too stifles innovation. The idea is to create a low-friction path for people to do what they actually want to do. NAT is technological friction. Tell…

Why not?

You're the one who said people should be spending their time doing innovation in biology, hacking on deep learning, and starting a blog, rather than learning how to configure and deal with networking.

If anyone wants to do those things, they can do them now and not have to worry about installing and configuring servers and dealing with IP networking. Or they can work on innovating in networking.

The fact is, however, that no one is going to say "if my server wasn't IPv6 only, then people would read my blog". They'll most likely be saying that because there's a lot of other content to consume on the Internet, and attention is limited. And if that is the case, they can get a $5 a month digital ocean instance, or one from any number of other providers, accessible over IPv4 and IPv6, and serve both protocols to entire Internet.

Also, chances are, the audience for a physics student's blog is most likely at some university, which has a good chance of having a working IPv6 stack; especially now that MIT is going wholehog on IPv6.

Re: By installing NAT, MIT stifles innovation

#179
post #168

Wow - 2603:4000::/24. That's the largest block of IPv6 addresses I'm aware of being handed out to a single entity. Normally, ISPs get a /32, from which, they hand out /48s to their customer. And, with pretty much zero paper work, and ISP can get a second /32 (usually adjacent with their first /32 so they can summarize as a /31). So - an ISP might get 2001:1868::/32 and then hand off 2001:1868:0209::/48 to a customer.…

Deutsche Telekom (AS3320) has a 2003::/19.

Definitely makes sense for SPs (Service Providers) like Deutsche Telekom to pick up larger blocks - /16s even for the big ones. But MIT is more likely classified as an LIR (Local Internet Registry) - /32s are more appropriate for them.

Re: By installing NAT, MIT stifles innovation

#180
post #62
post #11

A lot of fuss, but if you look at the presentation slide in the middle of the page ( https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PyyPpTv1p7g/WU7hMEBnm4I/AAAAAAAAE... for reference) it is clear that MIT is not stifling anything or shutting anyone's mouth. MIT is just moving to IPv6. Actually... MIT forcing an entire generation of future engineers to deal with IPv6... That will literally push innovation.

No. IPv6 is great in concept but the world just isn't ready for it yet. Even our Google Wifi access points don't support IPv6 in their latest firmware, so I have no way of using IPv6 even though Comcast supports it. AWS IPv6 support has been sketchy until only this year. Many parts of the world are happily dancing with their IPv4 NAT and their sysadmins have no incentives to support IPv6 whatsoever. Forcing people to…

In the case of IPv6 I disagree. Every system administrator should have someone constantly pestering them about it 24/7. It's very important to the future of the Internet that it gets rolled out, otherwise we end up with a fundamentally asymmetrical Internet where endpoint devices are incapable of forming direct links with other endpoint devices. (Yes you can NAT hole punch but that is never going to be reliable without enough address space to fully connect the graph.)

Google is one of the worst offenders when it comes to dragging their butt on IPv6. Their cloud offerings have zero support, and some of their default Linux cloud images ship with IPv6 disabled in the kernel so that even if you run network virtualization software you don't get it. Much of their front-facing stuff supports it, but users can't actually use it for anything.

Microsoft comes next. Azure has no IPv6 to speak of.

Amazon is finally rolling it out. "Second tier" VPSes like Digital Ocean, Linode, and Vultr have had it for aeons.

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