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Men Don’t Want to Be Nurses. Their Wives Agree

nytimes.com

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Re: Men Don’t Want to Be Nurses. Their Wives Agree

#51

Post by inopinatus »

solatic wrote: post #45
inopinatus wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to burst your bubble: this works in the tech industry because the impact of a bad judgment call at L1 is not the death of a human being.

And nobody's saying that L1 health support should be uneducated (no dedicated schooling), unaided (no need for patient records indicating allergies etc.), or all-powerful (including, say, the ability to prescribe powerful doses). The argument is that there's plenty of room for people who went through a (significant) fraction of the time it takes to complete traditional medical school to earn a (significant) fraction…

That argument comes from the wrong direction. It may indeed reduce system costs and improve overall availability, but those things are crippled by the commercial construction of US healthcare not the expense of doctors salaries.

Fix that by adopting healthcare systems from overseas, rather than increasing the mortality rate.

Re: Men Don’t Want to Be Nurses. Their Wives Agree

#52

Post by inopinatus »

maxerickson wrote: post #44
inopinatus wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The remaining XX% (I dispute your claimed 80%, it sounds fabricated) is why so-called "nurse practitioners" must not act as though they are front-line doctors. These people have too high an opinion of their medical qualifications. What you propose will increase mortality rates due to incorrect diagnosis of serious conditions. That is entirely unacceptable. That suggestion of "Associate doctors" is a travesty that wou…

What you are asking for - what you have listed as the positive outcomes - is properly handled by a patient advocate. These are rare today, I would see it grow as a profession. I wonder if there is a way to structure payments such that doctors fill this role. It would be convenient if their incentives were so well aligned with patient interests.

It'd be yet another aspect of a healthcare system that gets hijacked by commercial interests, which is already the principal reason that US healthcare costs 17% of GDP when other countries deliver equal quality for 9%.

Re: Men Don’t Want to Be Nurses. Their Wives Agree

#54

Post by maxerickson »

inopinatus wrote: post #52
maxerickson wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are asking for - what you have listed as the positive outcomes - is properly handled by a patient advocate. These are rare today, I would see it grow as a profession. I wonder if there is a way to structure payments such that doctors fill this role. It would be convenient if their incentives were so well aligned with patient interests.

It'd be yet another aspect of a healthcare system that gets hijacked by commercial interests, which is already the principal reason that US healthcare costs 17% of GDP when other countries deliver equal quality for 9%.

Are you talking about patient advocates getting hijacked or about properly structured payments getting hijacked?

Re: Men Don’t Want to Be Nurses. Their Wives Agree

#55

Post by inopinatus »

maxerickson wrote: post #54
inopinatus wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be yet another aspect of a healthcare system that gets hijacked by commercial interests, which is already the principal reason that US healthcare costs 17% of GDP when other countries deliver equal quality for 9%.

Are you talking about patient advocates getting hijacked or about properly structured payments getting hijacked?

I'm saying there is no payment structure you can a) devise and b) implement, without inadvertently creating a whole secondary financial sector to exploit and debase it. The word "properly" cannot attach.

Re: Men Don’t Want to Be Nurses. Their Wives Agree

#56

Post by flukus »

inopinatus wrote: post #51
solatic wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And nobody's saying that L1 health support should be uneducated (no dedicated schooling), unaided (no need for patient records indicating allergies etc.), or all-powerful (including, say, the ability to prescribe powerful doses). The argument is that there's plenty of room for people who went through a (significant) fraction of the time it takes to complete traditional medical school to earn a (significant) fraction…

That argument comes from the wrong direction. It may indeed reduce system costs and improve overall availability, but those things are crippled by the commercial construction of US healthcare not the expense of doctors salaries. Fix that by adopting healthcare systems from overseas, rather than increasing the mortality rate.

Countries with socialized healthcare are facing the same issue, ballooning healthcare costs, just less acutely.

Re: Men Don’t Want to Be Nurses. Their Wives Agree

#57

Post by flukus »

throwawaycopy wrote: post #46
GhostVII wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that the point? Monkeys don't have language and culture, but males and females still prefer different types of things, giving evidence to the argument that it is not simply culture influencing children's toy preferences

This is a study about monkeys. How does this and why should this apply to humans?

Because we both evolved from a distant ancestor, any behavior we share is very likely to be an evolutionary trait.

Re: Men Don’t Want to Be Nurses. Their Wives Agree

#58

Post by inopinatus »

flukus wrote: post #56
inopinatus wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument comes from the wrong direction. It may indeed reduce system costs and improve overall availability, but those things are crippled by the commercial construction of US healthcare not the expense of doctors salaries. Fix that by adopting healthcare systems from overseas, rather than increasing the mortality rate.

Countries with socialized healthcare are facing the same issue, ballooning healthcare costs, just less acutely.

That is wrong. For example, the UK's cost of healthcare as a percentage of GDP is actually declining.

The US has double the healthcare expenditure by %age of GDP vs comparable nations such as the UK or Australia, and this order-of-magnitude difference is entirely explainable as systematic inefficiencies of the insurance-led market and uncontrolled drug pricing. All that cost - and it doesn't even cover everyone.

Future generations will study the basket case that is today's US non-single-payer insurance system and write it up under chapter titles like "What the hell were they thinking" and "How not to do it".

Re: Men Don’t Want to Be Nurses. Their Wives Agree

#59

Post by ddingus »

nailer wrote: post #29
ddingus wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is because women remain looked down upon. (Unacceptable, but a disturbing reality today) A woman presenting up, masculine is seen as tough, bold, generally positive terms. A man, doing anything feminine, is presenting down. Of course, all of that is silly, rooted in cultural norms too. We have a lot of work to do before people get past this sorry state of affairs. People should do what they can and feel good doi…

I think it's because people find certain roles more attractive. Men doing physical work, women doing nurturing roles are found attractive by more of the population. I think that the women who find males nurses unattractive simply find them unattractive, rather than looking down upon their own gender. It seems a bit of a stretch and a really nasty thing to claim that these women have internalised misogyny.

I didn't speak to misogyny.

Did make a status argument.

Your point on attraction has merit. I am not sure low attraction is the same as looking down on others.

Re: Men Don’t Want to Be Nurses. Their Wives Agree

#60

Post by ddingus »

inopinatus wrote: post #34
nailer wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's because people find certain roles more attractive. Men doing physical work, women doing nurturing roles are found attractive by more of the population. I think that the women who find males nurses unattractive simply find them unattractive, rather than looking down upon their own gender. It seems a bit of a stretch and a really nasty thing to claim that these women have internalised misogyny.

It is not a stretch. Both men and women are complicit in reinforcing gender roles and perceptions.

Agreed
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