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Betelgeuse captured by ALMA

eso.org

61–70 of 78 posts

Re: Betelgeuse captured by ALMA

#61
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_resolution explains the relevant formula for being able to take pictures like this.

Space telescopes like the James Webb are not actually as good as the ground-based arrays that were used here, which put together multiple receivers over a distance to create a much wider "eye".

I'm hoping that some day we'll have space-based arrays for this. Imagine if the virtual "eye" on the array was as wide as the orbit of the Moon!

Re: Betelgeuse captured by ALMA

#62

So if our sun were replaced by Betelgeuse, Betelgeuse would engulf all the inner planets. That's huge. It's hard to fathom a star that big.

Our star is going to do that in 5 billion years - transform into a red giant & engulf Mercury, Venus, and probably Earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#After_core_hydrogen_exhaus...

Re: Betelgeuse captured by ALMA

#63
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many photons ?

Well, let's do the math. ALMA consists of 66 antennas, most of which are 12 meters in diameter. That's about 7000 square meters of receiving area. Betelgeuse is 642 light years away, which is 6x10^18 meters. The area of a sphere with that diameter is about 10^38 square meters. So 10^-34 of the power emitted from Betelgeuse ends up falling on the ALMA array. According to Wikipedia, the luminosity of Betelgeuse is 90-1…

That's a pretty good Fermi calculation!

Re: Betelgeuse captured by ALMA

#65
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many photons ?

Well, let's do the math. ALMA consists of 66 antennas, most of which are 12 meters in diameter. That's about 7000 square meters of receiving area. Betelgeuse is 642 light years away, which is 6x10^18 meters. The area of a sphere with that diameter is about 10^38 square meters. So 10^-34 of the power emitted from Betelgeuse ends up falling on the ALMA array. According to Wikipedia, the luminosity of Betelgeuse is 90-1…

The article [1] linked on ESO page mentions that "observations lasted for 75 min with 61 min spent on source". It also mentions only 47 antennas.

[1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1706.06021.pdf

Re: Betelgeuse captured by ALMA

#66
post #27

At the risk of uncovering my ancientness, I remember reading astronomy books as a kid which specified that stars are so far away that they can't appear as anything more than dots of light even when viewed through the largest telescopes. Always makes me wonder what can be achieved in the future, especially since we're probably somewhere on an exponential progress curve. Of course, assuming a lot of optimism about not…

Regarding visible spectrum observations, I've been waiting to see if anyone can come up with a way to develop a consumer-accessible instrument that can sample a high enough resolution, to image all of the moon landing sites. For as long as I can remember, the same thing has been said about the surface of the moon, which is the primary fuel for hoax narratives. With all the buzz about high-resolution arrays being cobb…

I'm not an expert on this stuff, but my understanding is the real issue isn't the sensor, it's the lens you put in front of it. You essentially have two ways to see smaller things from a fixed vantage point--put a longer focal length in front of the existing sensor, or put a higher resolution sensor behind the existing focal length lens. The problem is longer focal length gets big and expensive very quick, and existing lenses would limit the ability of a high resolution sensor. In many cases, high end professional camera with 36mp or higher sensors are hampered by the lenses that can't resolve that much detail.

Now, maybe in a few decades the CalTech lensless sensor will be commercially available and will work well enough that we won't have to worry about optics anymore, and it will all be silicon, but CalTech's sensor currently has something like 16 pixels total, so it has a long way to go.

Re: Betelgeuse captured by ALMA

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That image is quite stunning. As the 2008 press release [1] states, this image was one of the first successes at direct imaging an exoplanet. It raised some interesting questions, such as why such a massive planet could be found so far out (330 AU!) The scientific paper for this observation can be found in [2] for those interested more astrophysical detail. I feel compelled to offer an astronomer's clarification thou…

I think maybe your definition of "resolved" is a little skewed. It is not about the features of the object, but more by the Rayleigh Criterion [1][2] So we can already (and have been able to for a long time) to "resolve" things as apparently-small as exoplanets, but for resolving _surface details_ we are one order of magnitude away for interferometers and two orders of magnitude away for standard single-mirror telesc…

I gently disagree that this is a skewed definition. By convention, a "resolved" image of an object implies an extremely high quality measurement. On the other hand, we can resolve the separation of the star and planet in the Gemini image, but it would be misleading to claim that this is a resolved image of the planet. It may seem like a petty distinction, but I think it is better - for clarity's sake - to reserve the term "resolved" for its most natural contextual definition. Perhaps I am oversensitive to this as many non-astronomers are often led to believe that artistic renditions of exoplanets are actual images, not conceptions.

This type of direct detection was one of the first of its kind, so I wouldn't characterize this as an old capability - 2008 is relatively recent. Telescope turnover time is very long; Gemini remains a prominent telescope for science-class observations. Additionally, most new telescope generations don't achieve an order-of-magnitude improvement in resolution, or at least, not anymore. There are a lot of serious, decadal-scale barriers to improving resolution that must be overcome.

In terms of angular resolution, the order-of-magnitude estimates are the minimum improvements, assuming that such a close and large exoplanet exists. (AFAIK, there is no such system.) In practice it is likely that we need even better angular resolution, as there are not many systems within 10 ly away, and extremely large exoplanets are not very common (relatively speaking.)

Re: Betelgeuse captured by ALMA

#68
post #64

> in the millimeter continuum what does that mean?

"Millimeter" refers to the wavelength of light. "Continuum" is a shorthand that in this context refers to thermal emission.

All matter emits thermal radiation. The spectral energy distribution of this radiation is determined by the Planck's law [1]. If you measure the spectrum of an object, some part of it will be from this thermal emission, which is a continuous function of wavelength/frequency. In many cases, the conditions are right for spectral lines [2] to be produced, either in emission or absorption. Because these features are centered at specific wavelengths, they are not usually thought of as "continuous" features in the spectrum. (This isn't strictly accurate, as all spectral lines suffer some broadening into extremely narrow, but still continuous, features. Additionally, there are sometimes finite width continuous features called "bands" that arise due to so many lines being present that they blend together.) Generally the continuous part of the spectrum is called "continuum" while the other parts are "lines."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_law [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_line

Re: Betelgeuse captured by ALMA

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we notice it exploding it would have actually exploded 600 years prior.

What is the right way to think about this? If we observe a supernova 600LY away, do we say that event is happening "now" from our frame of reference? Or should we think of it as happening "600 years ago", and the light from the event is only now reaching us? If you think of causality itself moving at the speed of light (which of course it does), and think in light cones rather than referring to a nonexistent universa…

No, this is not a good way to think about relativity and its implications.

When we talk about time in the sense of things happening "now" or "in the past" or "after", we have to think about reference frame, _not_ location. Reference frames are inherently global, as opposed to an "event", which encodes both location and time relative to all possible inertial reference frames.

The typical metaphor is imagine that you infiltrate space with a three-dimensional grid of clocks that are kept a fixed distance from each other (say by a rigid rod). Those clocks are not moving relative to each other, and it is trivial to synchronize them, because the distance between them is fixed -- fire a light pulse to your neighbor with the current time, and you neighbor will know when you sent the symbol by subtracting off the time it takes light to travel the distance. This grid, that covers all of space, represents a single reference frame.

So if Betelgeuse had in fact exploded six hundred years ago, then the clock grid in Earth's inertial frame would have recorded the event of the Battle of Orewin Bridge on Earth at the same time as the event of the beginning of the Betelgeusian supernova in the Betelgeuse system.

The complexity of this comes in the fact that the inertial frame travelling towards Betelgeuse from Earth at some significant fraction of the speed of light would, with its clock grid, measured Orewin Bridge well before the supernova's start. That's independent of the amount of time it would take for those two clocks to communicate with each other -- we can almost imagine a scientist who finally downloads the logs for all the clocks in a given reference frame collating the data.

What we _can_ say, though, is that once the event of someone on Earth seeing the supernova occurs, then that event is strictly _after_ the supernova -- no inertial reference frame will ever see that event, "observation of supernova", occur before the "initiation of supernova".

Re: Betelgeuse captured by ALMA

#70
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding visible spectrum observations, I've been waiting to see if anyone can come up with a way to develop a consumer-accessible instrument that can sample a high enough resolution, to image all of the moon landing sites. For as long as I can remember, the same thing has been said about the surface of the moon, which is the primary fuel for hoax narratives. With all the buzz about high-resolution arrays being cobb…

I'm not an expert on this stuff, but my understanding is the real issue isn't the sensor, it's the lens you put in front of it. You essentially have two ways to see smaller things from a fixed vantage point--put a longer focal length in front of the existing sensor, or put a higher resolution sensor behind the existing focal length lens. The problem is longer focal length gets big and expensive very quick, and existi…

> we won't have to worry about optics anymore

Right, if you have phase information you have a lot more options for (cheaply) making a synthetic aperture that's way bigger than your possible physical aperture.

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