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A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

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Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#191

Post by RivieraKid »

taeric wrote: post #135
lend000 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps minimum wage proponents need to frame it like that to justify it, but in reality, it goes both ways . You ARE legally forbidding a homeless person from working at a price of their choosing, just as much as you are forbidding a business from purchasing labor below a certain price.

This line of thinking leads to allowing people to sell themselves into slavery. Do we need to solve homelessness? Absolutely. We do not do this by propping up businesses and properties that rely on below livable wages. I can buy some level of slippery slope at play here. But, by and large, this frames it in a way that allows sub-livable wages. So, you can think my "side" is framing this in a way to justify it. This d…

What's wrong with allowing people to sell themselves into what you call slavery?

Assuming it's a bad decision (makes their lives worse off), the problem is that they make a bad decision. In that case, it might make sense to create a regulation that forbids people making bad decisions.

If it's a good decision, there's no point forbidding it.

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#192

Post by dragonwriter »

atemerev wrote: post #177
tptacek wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hazlitt wasn't a scholar of any sort. He was a writer. He's got about as much authority on this subject as John Stossel. The irony of this citation is that we're commenting on a paper that opens by observing that the theory of minimum wages, derived in effect from economic first principles, hugely oversimplifies the empirical reality. And as support for that study.. Hazlitt.

Is von Mises authoritative enough for you?

If I was looking for a nihil obstat certifying the work to be free from any doctrinal error with respect to Austrian-school orthodoxy, then von Mises would be perfectly authoritative.

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#193

Post by maxerickson »

rsync wrote: post #139
tptacek wrote: post #43

I really dislike this framing. By any contemporary definition I'm a "liberal": * I support higher taxes, particularly on higher income people, almost for its own sake. * I oppose almost all military intervention abroad. * I believe the federal government needs to intervene with local governments to prevent police abuses. * I strongly support public schools and oppose public-funded charters. ... and I could go on and…

"Why am I meant to feel like my "team" lost something when a study confirms something that most economists have been saying for decades?" Because that "team" did, in fact, lose something - at least in relation to the very cynical (and probably correct) charge that minimum wage increases are vote-buying. Also, I think it's worth considering that the very sound and considerable notion that "a wage price floor causes al…

The Laffer Curve is only ever used as rhetoric, people that talk about it never show their work.

(it's an elegant illustration, but to implement policy concrete estimates of impacts on revenues are more useful than an elegant illustration)

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#194

Post by tim333 »

davidw wrote: post #18

I find this to be credible - at some level, it'll certainly hurt. The problem as I see it is that some people say "aha, see, that doesn't work", but then stop there. There is a real problem in that some people (not all who make minimum wage, and not only those who make minimum wage) have real problems making ends meet. What's the best way to help them?

Dunno the best way but there are a lot of things that can be done and have been tried in various countries. Negative income tax, free healthcare and education, social or subsidised housing and so on. Maybe in the future basic income will be a thing.

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#195

Post by RivieraKid »

PatentTroll wrote: post #147
koolba wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If nobody is allowed to offer him work below a particular rate and nobody is willing to pay him at or above that rate, then he's effectively forbidden from working.

Or, if no company is willing to pay a living wage to accomplish a task, does it need to be done?

Companies will pay at most the value that a worker creates. It makes no sense to pay minimum wage, if the worker creates less value than that.

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#196

Post by RivieraKid »

TYPE_FASTER wrote: post #179
RussianCow wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since we're throwing out anecdotes, I've talked to a few local business owners who are looking at layoffs in the near future as a result of a series of upcoming jumps in minimum wage, because they simply can't afford to pay 50% more (over the next 5 years) and keep the same number of employees. I also met an automation engineer whose business is booming because companies are investing heavily into robotics and other…

> I also met an automation engineer whose business is booming because companies are investing heavily into robotics and other technologies as cheaper alternatives to human beings. Yes, my guess is increasing the minimum wage, along with the rising cost of healthcare benefits, will be very convenient excuses for automation.

Excuses? That's assuming that automation is something bad, that you need an excuse to do. Of course that companies try to maximize their profit. It's a good and necessary thing. Otherwise they'll lose market to competitors who automate.

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#197

Post by germanier »

gaius wrote: post #46
Kiro wrote: post #37

The successful Scandinavian model doesn't have any minimum wages for a reason.

Nor does Germany with some of the best working conditions in the world...

Germany introduced a general minimum wage of 8.50€ in 2015 (since raised to 8.84€). Before that there were (and still are) many union-negotiated sector-specific minimum wage rules (same as in the Nordic countries) but they haven't covered all low-wage sectors.

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#198

Post by coldpie »

dragonwriter wrote: post #185
coldpie wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm willing to entertain other ideas. If the living wage is X and the minimum wage is Y < X, then someone has to make up the difference. Two methods to make up the gap that make sense to me are taxation and redistribution, or raising the minimum wage. How do you suggest to make up the gap?

> How do you suggest to make up the gap? How about first reducing the gap by reducing taxation of labor income, including employer-side payroll taxes (which both reduces the nominal wage necessary for livable income and makes it less expensive for employees to hire workers at any given nominal wage.)

I admit I've never been on the employer side of the payroll equation, but I'd be shocked if that was enough to make up the gap, especially when you consider the reduction in social services that would be required to balance it. Kansas is going down the "no tax" route and is on the verge of falling apart.

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#199

Post by coldpie »

RivieraKid wrote: post #186
coldpie wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, the minimum wage definitely benefits middle class teenagers on their first jobs (if they can get a job), and has questionable benefit for millennial humanities college grads who have yet to start a career. This is the problem. Everyone working 40 hours per week deserves a living wage, whether they're fresh out of high school or 8 years into a humanities degree. There's this weird sense out there…

"Deserve" is pretty subjective and vague, borderline meaningless. One could argue that they only deserve the value they create. The problem is that automation increases inequality (I think). Between individual workers (software engineers vs factory workers) - and between capital and labour. The solution is income redistribution. To me, the negative income tax with no minimum wage makes most sense. Minimum wage is a w…

> "Deserve" is pretty subjective and vague, borderline meaningless.

I don't think so. If we agree human labor has value, then the question is what that value is. About a century ago, we collectively agreed that 40 hours of work per week is a decent balance between work and home life. It seems reasonable to conclude that someone working those 40 hours has performed enough work to earn enough to have all of their needs paid for, including housing, transportation, food, and leisure time costs. In short, someone working 40 hours per week deserves a living wage.

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#200

Post by thehardsphere »

vcdimension wrote: post #120
thehardsphere wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it that collective bargaining by unions relevant? I mean, we have collective bargaining in the US, so I'm trying to understand how exactly that is different from Scandinavia.

I think you have more anti-union laws in some US states, such as Michigan and Wisconsin.

Well, OK, but I think Washington is not one of those states. So, again, how is it relevant?
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