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Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone development

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Re: Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone development

#121

Post by mkramlich »

Tichy wrote: post #117
mkramlich wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're totally right. I have never met either man in person. I only said I suspected that, based on the personal behavior I've seen expressed in both cases. I've never seen Carmack behave badly. What I read in the Lee post constitutes bad behavior, in my ethical system. YMMV.

What part do you deem unethical? I am conflicted about the ethics of driving high speed sports cars myself :-)

I didn't say he was unethical. I said he did something that constitutes what I consider to be bad behavior. Publically announcing one's $1000/hr pay rate to the entire world, and writing a post using the particular language and attitude shown in it. That struck me as bad behavior, applying the same standards I'd expect out of anybody else. Is it like robbing a bank? Heck no. Obnoxious? In my book, yep. And look, I'm clearly not the only one who had the same reaction, as evidenced by what others have said in this article's discussion area.

As long as no bunnies were made to cry during the production of a Tesla Roadster, I'm confident I wouldn't feel conflicted about driving one. :)

Re: Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone development

#122

Post by mkramlich »

Samuel_Michon wrote: post #112
mkramlich wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... he's a household name for some reason, right? There was some original core non-meta reason he became famous. I suspect the reason had to do with some combination of the following: women find him attractive, men admire him and/or want to be as cool as him, PLUS arguably he's actually a pretty decent actor given the right role/script.

Up until halfway into the third sentence I thought you were still talking about Mike Lee. My bad.

Good feedback! Rereading it I realize it may not have been clear I was referring to Brad Pitt. Too late for me to edit it though. My bad, actually. :)

Re: Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone development

#123

Post by sharpn »

danudey wrote: post #107
sharpn wrote: post #61

There are no testimonials on his website. Just saying.

He worked for Delicious Monster and Tapulous, well-known names in the Mac/iPhone dev community. Also, Apple hired him to build their Mobile Store app, which is pretty significant because I'm sure they have a lot of talented developers already.

Fair enough then. I only came across the post through this site & couldn't see anything to substantiate his claims, but I guess they're a given.

Re: Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone development

#124

Post by JoachimSchipper »

moe wrote: post #104
JoachimSchipper wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The list of options he offers does look like consultancy.

iPhone consultancy can be had for much cheaper, though. I have worked with contractors from eastern europe that work an entire week for the amount he asks for an hour. And despite the cliches their performance was absolutely okay. Not mindblowing, but as solid as it gets within the constraints of the iPhone platform. It's not exactly rocket science. I'm entirely okay with people charging what they're worth. But I don…

Well, "charging what the market will bear". And why couldn't he be an order of magnitude above average? The "good coders are ten times as productive" meme is alive and well on HN.

(Note that "ten times as productive" depends a lot on what you are doing. I concur that one of these "wrap an RSS feed" apps probably does not significantly benefit from hiring a truly excellent coder versus a competent one.)

Re: Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone development

#125

Post by JohnnyBrown »

ramchip wrote: post #114
nolane wrote: post #4

The Dunning–Kruger effect at work.

You can say a lot of things about the guy, but I don't think you can call him incompetent without at least a little justification. I think the Dunning–Kruger effect/paper is one the most abusively reposted things on HN and Reddit.

The Dunning-Kruger effect: If you aren't practicing it, start.

Re: Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone development

#127

Post by rortian »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #85
rortian wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This PG essay is a good refutation of the notion that (progressive or, at least, non-regressive) taxes are a "win" for the poor in a zero sum game: This is a straw man. I cannot think of anyone (and I'd love to see you find a progressive or anyone) that would say that economics is a zero sum game. A lot of this community did form around pg's essays. However, it's a little sickening to think that anyone would take th…

However, please do not expect, or treat his writing, like he will win a nobel prize in economics. Well, here's a somewhat relevant quote from someone who did win a Nobel Prize in economics: "Most economic fallacies derive from the tendency to assume that there is a fixed pie, that one party can gain only at the expense of another." ~Milton Friedman Sounds familiar, no? And while you might not be able to find someone…

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2007/feb/15/who-was...

>Milton Friedman played three roles in the intellectual life of the twentieth century. There was Friedman the economist’s economist, who wrote technical, more or less apolitical analyses of consumer behavior and inflation. There was Friedman the policy entrepreneur, who spent decades campaigning on behalf of the policy known as monetarism—finally seeing the Federal Reserve and the Bank of England adopt his doctrine at the end of the 1970s, only to abandon it as unworkable a few years later. Finally, there was Friedman the ideologue, the great popularizer of free-market doctrine.

I'd have to suggest that this statement came from the 3rd Friedman. There is sort of an irony here. Friedman saw monetary policy as a zero sum game. I think that was a fallacy.

Re: Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone development

#128

Post by hboon »

dillydally wrote: post #116
dasil003 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not involved with Tapulous and therefore I'm not really at liberty to say. Actually I probably should have kept my mouth shut on this thread, because I despise when people do what I just did, but I just could not sit by while that credential got thrown out there as if Tap Tap Revenge was his brainchild or something.

I don't know anyone inside Tapulous personally, so this is pure hearsay. Take it as you will. What I've heard is Mike thought Tap Tap was too low brow and that by focusing on that app to the exclusion of their other apps at the time (Twitterific and FriendBook) they were betraying his vision for the company. After he expressed his opinion about this he was asked to leave.

Did you mean Tweetsville or really, Twitterrific?

Re: Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone development

#129

Post by lsc »

jawn wrote: post #71
mrshoe wrote: post #25

That’s a little like hearing what Brad Pitt got paid for his last movie and wondering why the producer didn’t instead hire Brad Pitman for scale. Oh you’ve never heard of Brad Pitman? You’re not familiar with his work? But you are familiar with Brad Pitt’s work, right? After all, he’s an experienced actor and producer with not one, but two, Academy Award nominations and a portfolio full of household names. Bzzzt. Hor…

I agree. Brad Pitt earns what he does because of the amount of money his movies bring in. If Mike Lee can bring in enough monies for his clients to recoup his exorbitant hourly rate, more power to him. He should definitely tone down the ego and rhetoric a bit though.

depends...

If you are marketing to business people, it seems to be best to puff yourself up as much as possible. they eat that shit up, as far as I can tell. I bet his massive ego gets him some work.

When marketing to technical people, the opposite seems to be the case. In my experience, it's best to say "Oh, I'm nothing" and then proceed to show or do something pretty cool. Adding in a few words like 'perhaps' or "I believe" can make your message come across much more positively when dealing with the technically focused, and can do the opposite when dealing with the business focused.

(note, while "I think" or "some people believe" adds a touch of humility, "In my experience" can go either way. It can imply that you feel you have a great deal more experience in this area than the other people in the room, adding to confidence/arrogance, but it can also imply that what works for you might not work for others, making you seem less confrontational.)

This is one of the things I find interesting about hacker news; it seems to be populated by people who are halfway between those two worldviews.

Re: Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone development

#130

Post by silencio »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #113
silencio wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? It's that problematic to go talk to someone who'll want to talk to you about your needs and see what works out for both of you? You'd prefer the guy with that vague portfolio and a flat published rate instead? I don't publish my rate (let's just say it's not even half of $1k/hr except in extraordinary circumstances, like most developers I know consulting on non-specialized stuff), but I am at no shortage of c…

I don't publish my rate (let's just say it's not even half of $1k/hr except in extraordinary circumstances, like most developers I know consulting on non-specialized stuff), but I am at no shortage of clients right now. If I could actually slow my flow of emails from interested individuals, businesses, and recruiters for consulting and jobs, I'd be so happy... This is a signal from the market that you're not charging…

You do have a good point, but as I've learned to raise my rates without feeling ridiculous about it, I've gotten more and more emails and calls. I also don't have the balls or the experience to demand a regular $1k/hour rate, or even half that at this point. I suspect if I had both the courage and the appropriate experience/knowledge I could demand that and more easily, and still have the same problem...just with lots more money involved. I have charged clients close to $1k/hour occasionally during emergencies and with specialized work, but I can't deal with constant stress from trying to deliver my idea of what $1k/hr consulting should be, even with fewer hours. I usually don't have the experience or knowledge to do so :)

Interestingly enough, most of the criticism I've read about Mike and this whole thing from other iPhone devs and such is not focusing around the rate. They're more focused on whether or not he'd actually be able to deliver something worth justifying that rate. Alas, that question will only be answered by whether or not Mike is successful in securing enough hours with clients that will pay that.

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