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The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

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Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#131

Post by anigbrowl »

alva wrote: post #110
anigbrowl wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad you asked! Yes, there are people who advocate for genocide. Here's a recent example of such rhetoric from a well-established blog that I'd prefer not to link to here: Genocide necessarily involves either suppression of fertility or active or passive killing, or some combination of methods. Passive killing might include the refusal to supply aid such as food or medical care, preferring to just let Nature run…

I absolutely agree with you that some people on the wildest fringes do advocate genocide. Note that that pro-genocide advocates tick more diversity quotas than the most liberal arts college. Do I paint all of BLM with the same brush as I do with the small numbers of their group who advocate white genocide? Do I cast all Muslims aside because a small % advocate genocide of Kuffar? Both would be unthinkable in right-on…

I can't possibly shape everyone's word choices. I'm just pointing out that mine as used here are specific, considered, and backed by evidence..

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#132

Post by anigbrowl »

gavanwoolery wrote: post #120
anigbrowl wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're only willing to bet 4 or 8 years out, which is itself worrying. There are certainly people who actively espouse genocidal intentions openly in our body politic, and the connections between them and powerful figures in the administration are not very distant. In situations like this, its important to step back and ask - under what circumstances would the US actually cross the same line that the Nazis did? Have…

Betting any further out would make me presumptuous. :) I really cannot be so bold as to say I know what the far future holds, and I can only make educated guesses about the near future. As far as domestic policy, deporting illegal immigrants is a far cry from genocide (FWIW I am pro-immigration anyhow). At least 50 percent of our country is to the left, and probably less than 10 percent of the country is on the extre…

Of course there's a big difference, but the Nazis didn't start gassing people the day after they took power; as late as 1940 they were considering just resettling Jewish populations in Madagascar. The chilling fact about the Holocaust was not that it was directly ordered from the very height of the Nazi government as that lower-level officials decided it was the most practical solution to an operational problem that seemed compatible with Hitler's fanatical loathing of the Jews.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution

My anxiety about this stems not from any belief that this or a future administration has a detailed plan to murder large numbers of people, as from a coincidence of political momentum and the existence of a decent number of people who would be just fine with or outright enthusiastic about that outcome, as well as a much larger number of people who'd rather just look the other way any time unpleasant topics appear on their radar.

I have much less confidence that you do about demographics and the health of the body politic. Just to add some context I'm not basing my opinions on blogs but on lengthy analysis from military intelligence professionals, counterterrorist analysts, and other high-quality primary sources, as well as extended personal study of the far right. I hope I'm wrong about this.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#133

Post by pheldagryph »

anigbrowl wrote: post #129
pheldagryph wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please explain to me why you find the idea of violent opposition to Nazism 'chilling' That is one HECK of an uncharitable assumption. My original comment speaks for itself. You are coming uncomfortably close to calling me a Nazi sympathizer. I don't appreciate that. In case the ancestors get edited: >>> It's way better to combat "racial purity" ideologies (or any other speech) with more speech, with reason and trut…

I have no doubt you're a good hearted person and have not made any assumptions to the contrary, but it does read as if you are chilled by a request for evidence that reason and truth are the best means of combating racial purity ideologies. It would certainly be nice to rely on reason and truth if those strategies are indeed reliable. But the extant question is what if they're not? The historical record suggests that…

You continue to misrepresent my past comments. I will read nothing further from you, save for an apology.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#134

Post by gspetr »

alva wrote: post #110
anigbrowl wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad you asked! Yes, there are people who advocate for genocide. Here's a recent example of such rhetoric from a well-established blog that I'd prefer not to link to here: Genocide necessarily involves either suppression of fertility or active or passive killing, or some combination of methods. Passive killing might include the refusal to supply aid such as food or medical care, preferring to just let Nature run…

I absolutely agree with you that some people on the wildest fringes do advocate genocide. Note that that pro-genocide advocates tick more diversity quotas than the most liberal arts college. Do I paint all of BLM with the same brush as I do with the small numbers of their group who advocate white genocide? Do I cast all Muslims aside because a small % advocate genocide of Kuffar? Both would be unthinkable in right-on…

> Do I cast all Muslims aside because a small % advocate genocide of Kuffar?

I think you did a disservice to the point you were trying to make because with muslims anyone who does not follow Quran to the letter is found lacking.

Qur'an (8:39) "Wage war on non-Muslims and kill them until they submit and the only religion is Islam."

It is about as genocidal as it gets.

I've never heard about anything connected to National Socialism prescribing something so extreme, in as clear and direct way, e.g. there is no "Wage war on non-Nazis and kill them until they submit and the only ideology is Nazism."

But muslims get a free pass. You don't hear them saying it that often because of Taqqiya.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#135

Post by lilyball »

tptacek wrote: post #119
Mz wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the basic problem is that people arguing the way you are arguing are basically arguing in a theoretical space. It almost never addresses the practical realities nor tells people how to move the needle in any meaningful way. Arguing about doing it right very often ends up being a form of flak that helps keeps the status quo in place. I'm currently homeless and I try to explain to people why I don't agree with…

Hold on. I DO NOT think we need to respect Nazis or their beliefs. Rather, I think citizens have something close to an obligation to suppress Nazis (and all related ideologies) with every lawful means available. By way of example: the deference Hacker News gives to racism and misogyny in the name of tolerance is deeply problematic for me, and, I think, an enormous mistake. Where Ed and I disagree is that I do not thi…

Punching nazis isn't because they're "carrying an offensive flag". If that's all it was, I'd totally agree with you.

The difference is the nazi ideology directly threatens the very livelihood of people, and allowing nazis to spread their ideology is really dangerous to these people. The very ideas they're espousing are threatening, because they lead to bigotry and racism and disenfranchisement and violence and death. You can't just argue against them, because your argument isn't going to convince 100% of listeners to reject the nazi ideology. The only way to actually be safe is to stop the spread of nazi ideology, and the way to do that is to make nazis shut up, and the way to do that is to make them afraid to open their mouths.

Yeah it really sucks that this is what it's come to, but the other systems in this country that are supposed to deal with this lawfully aren't working.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#136

Post by gspetr »

anigbrowl wrote: post #80
gavanwoolery wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, also important not to confuse correlation and causation IMHO. Even if we fully mirrored the rise of the Nazi party (in the political sense), it would not necessarily imply that we would mirror their actions (genocide, etc). In situations like this, its important to step back and ask - under what circumstances would the US actually cross the same line that the Nazis did? (And I do not mean anecdotal instances - I…

You're only willing to bet 4 or 8 years out, which is itself worrying. There are certainly people who actively espouse genocidal intentions openly in our body politic, and the connections between them and powerful figures in the administration are not very distant. In situations like this, its important to step back and ask - under what circumstances would the US actually cross the same line that the Nazis did? Have…

> You're only willing to bet 4 or 8 years out, which is itself worrying.

In the FSU and in Central Asian countries with Turkic influence there is a very widely known little anecdote about Nasreddin[0] making a bet for a large sum of gold paid in advance with the Padishah that Nasreddin can teach his own mule to know theology better than Padishah himself in 20 years.

When asked why he made the bet Nasreddin replied: "In 20 years one of the three will have died: Either me, the mule or the Padishah . And nobody will be able to ascertain who knew Theology better."

The takeaway here is that it is foolish to make such long bets when the bettors might not even be around to collect. People in these countries often use the phrase "The mule or the padishah" when talking about politicians overpromising to deliver something over a long time.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasreddin

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Sufism/Nasrudin

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#137

Post by Mz »

tptacek wrote: post #126
anigbrowl wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What has usually happened in practice is that people seize the offensive flag and shred or burn it. Look Thomas, carrying a Nazi battle flag or a deliberate derivative of it isn't just a matter of 'creating strong emotions' in the sense of some proxy moral outrage. In certain contexts, it's an act of aggression. Legally speaking this may not rise to the standard of criminality for evaluating criminal threats. But a l…

I have basically the opposite perspective: that in a time like this, when the executive branch of the country is controlled by someone who aspires to be an American Duterte, the rule of law and our institutions have never mattered more. To abandon them now is to lose entirely.

I think you are missing my point entirely, I will note laws are made by people. They are not unbiased. This is part of the problem.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#138

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #126
anigbrowl wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What has usually happened in practice is that people seize the offensive flag and shred or burn it. Look Thomas, carrying a Nazi battle flag or a deliberate derivative of it isn't just a matter of 'creating strong emotions' in the sense of some proxy moral outrage. In certain contexts, it's an act of aggression. Legally speaking this may not rise to the standard of criminality for evaluating criminal threats. But a l…

I have basically the opposite perspective: that in a time like this, when the executive branch of the country is controlled by someone who aspires to be an American Duterte, the rule of law and our institutions have never mattered more. To abandon them now is to lose entirely.

[deleted]

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#139

Post by gspetr »

tptacek wrote: post #52

This thread is all over the place. Did I read a different article, or misread this one? Here's what I read: Pop culture has a possibly unfortunate habit of co-opting Nazism as an all-purpose source of villains. Because it assumes everyone understands why Nazism is evil, our culture rarely provides any historical context for its Nazi villains. Worse, to heighten drama, our all-purpose villains must be made continuousl…

I think the author fails to make his own point distinct enough:

> Right from the start, Wolfenstein's enemies are the brutal instruments of an ideology that liquidates the weakest among us.

There were ideologies promoting "Liquidation of the weakest" that FAR predated the Nazism. And those are still considered "cool" today.

All Spartan infants were brought before a council of inspectors and examined for physical defects, and those who weren’t up to standards were left to die.

Yet the Spartans are positive cultural memes, glorified for their masculine badassery, honor and valor, see the "300" for example.

My point is: If you want to talk about how bad Nazism is then you'd better approach it seriously and in my opinion this article failed to deliver that, it was superfluous.

I've played this very game for many hours, I've completed every achievement just as I did in Wolfenstein: The Old Blood. And I'm also Russian to boot. Yet I did not consider to make a mountain out of a molehill like the author did in this article.

So the nazis are the ultimate bad guys with no redeeming qualities, well who would have thought? This game has cool villains in it but it also has very satirical moments that the author failed to mention.

In the final fight the antagonist goes on a wild rant painting YOU as the actual villain for resisting the admittedly very fast progress that the world has achieved under Nazi rule and then you have to take out Zeppelins powering the antagonist's machine and when you do that the villain berates you for killing people on those zeppelins, saying that he had "put good men there. Men who had families." I honestly don't know how you can take that seriously and not laugh.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#140

Post by anigbrowl »

tptacek wrote: post #126
anigbrowl wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What has usually happened in practice is that people seize the offensive flag and shred or burn it. Look Thomas, carrying a Nazi battle flag or a deliberate derivative of it isn't just a matter of 'creating strong emotions' in the sense of some proxy moral outrage. In certain contexts, it's an act of aggression. Legally speaking this may not rise to the standard of criminality for evaluating criminal threats. But a l…

I have basically the opposite perspective: that in a time like this, when the executive branch of the country is controlled by someone who aspires to be an American Duterte, the rule of law and our institutions have never mattered more. To abandon them now is to lose entirely.

That's great, but I'd rather be prepared for the possibility of institutional failure than in denial about it.
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