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The future is emotional

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Re: The future is emotional

#41

Post by Mz »

skybrian wrote: post #40
Mz wrote: post #28

I really, really, really hate it when they refer to things like taking physical care of the elderly as "emotional labor." Caretaking can have a huge emotional component, but this framing has serious inherent problems. Furthermore, art, fiction and music are things that can do a lot for people emotionally and psychologically, both the makers of such and the consumers. Yet no one ever seems to include those in these ri…

What are the "serious inherent problems" in calling it emotional labor?

For one thing, it simultaneously glamorizes and discounts the hard physical labor involved in doing things like cleaning up someone who is playing with their own feces and throwing them at you. For another, it discounts the actual education and intelligence involved in doing a good job of taking proper care of people. For a third, it just reinforces the pink collar ghetto mentality surrounding this kind of work.

Perhaps most importantly, it frames it like this is about the laborer having emotional discipline or something. The reality is that feelings come from somewhere and we routinely mix up "love" the noun that describes a feeling and "love" the verb that describes care-taking that meets a high standard. That feeling in one person typically grows out of the hard labor done by another. The person that inspires the feelings is very often treated pretty abusively. They exist to make other people feel good and to hell with their needs or wants, kind of like the recent story titled "My Family's Slave."

Re: The future is emotional

#42

Post by [deleted] »

skybrian wrote: post #40
Mz wrote: post #28

I really, really, really hate it when they refer to things like taking physical care of the elderly as "emotional labor." Caretaking can have a huge emotional component, but this framing has serious inherent problems. Furthermore, art, fiction and music are things that can do a lot for people emotionally and psychologically, both the makers of such and the consumers. Yet no one ever seems to include those in these ri…

What are the "serious inherent problems" in calling it emotional labor?

[deleted]

Re: The future is emotional

#43

Post by majewsky »

prodmerc wrote: post #27

Well, of course it is. You don't go rioting in the streets while thinking rationally.

Not necessarily. There is sufficient precedent to establish that violence is an effective tool for that purpose, when applied in the right way under the right circumstances. Therefore, it can be rational to is violence for political means.

(Not advocating for violence here in any way. Just disputing your "while thinking rationally" point. There's actually a longrunning dispute among leftist theorists and philosophers whether violence is an acceptable means of bringing about political change. But the dispute is only about whether it's morally acceptable.)

Re: The future is emotional

#44

Post by giggles_giggles »

emersonrsantos wrote: post #11

Any sociopath/psychopath can game the emotional intelligence system by appearing to be whatever they feel they need to be, to get what they want, and it's not pretty.

"EQ is not a psychometrically valid concept. Insofar as it is anything (which it isn't) it's the Big Five trait agreeableness, although this depends, as it shouldn't, on which EQ measure is being used (they should all measure THE SAME THING). Agreeable people are compassionate and polite, but they can also be pushovers. Disagreeable people, on average (if they aren't too disagreeable) make better managers, because they are straightforward, don't avoid conflict and cannot be easily manipulated."

https://www.quora.com/What-is-more-beneficial-in-life-a-high...

Re: The future is emotional

#45

Post by ewjordan »

Mz wrote: post #41
skybrian wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the "serious inherent problems" in calling it emotional labor?

For one thing, it simultaneously glamorizes and discounts the hard physical labor involved in doing things like cleaning up someone who is playing with their own feces and throwing them at you. For another, it discounts the actual education and intelligence involved in doing a good job of taking proper care of people. For a third, it just reinforces the pink collar ghetto mentality surrounding this kind of work. Perh…

All of that seems to argue pretty strongly in favor of calling it "emotional labor" - caretaking involves a serious trade-off where the caretaker is expending a lot of emotional energy to do work for someone else. Much like physical labor involves expending a lot of physical energy to get stuff done.

I don't see anything either overly demeaning or glamorous about that descriptive term, it seems to describe exactly the value proposition that is on the table with that sort of work.

Re: The future is emotional

#46

Post by throwaway91111 »

skybrian wrote: post #40
Mz wrote: post #28

I really, really, really hate it when they refer to things like taking physical care of the elderly as "emotional labor." Caretaking can have a huge emotional component, but this framing has serious inherent problems. Furthermore, art, fiction and music are things that can do a lot for people emotionally and psychologically, both the makers of such and the consumers. Yet no one ever seems to include those in these ri…

What are the "serious inherent problems" in calling it emotional labor?

Well, it's also highly physical. Cooking and cleaning take up a large chunk of the time and labor, even if you aren't technically required to do so.

Re: The future is emotional

#47

Post by skybrian »

Mz wrote: post #41
skybrian wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the "serious inherent problems" in calling it emotional labor?

For one thing, it simultaneously glamorizes and discounts the hard physical labor involved in doing things like cleaning up someone who is playing with their own feces and throwing them at you. For another, it discounts the actual education and intelligence involved in doing a good job of taking proper care of people. For a third, it just reinforces the pink collar ghetto mentality surrounding this kind of work. Perh…

re: "it frames it like this is about the laborer having emotional discipline"

I thought "emotional" had more to do with the person being helped? They may be going through some kind of crisis (having one of the worst days of their lives). Helping them isn't just an obstacle to doing the job; in medical or teaching professions, it often is the job. That's why it's different from another job that might be equally or more physically demanding, but it's just hard work.

Maybe we could distinguish this from jobs serving the public where ordinary, able-bodied adult customers are being demanding for no good reason. But then again, they are probably serving the young, old, sick, etc. some of the time too. That's what serving the public means; you get all kinds.

Re: The future is emotional

#48

Post by paviva »

wsinks wrote: post #22
infinity0 wrote: post #9

I'm a bit annoyed at the constant background snide and subtle implication of these vague literary articles, that programmers are bad empathetically or emotionally. They use facts such as western programming culture being very male-dominated, and then twist this to imply that males are bad at being empathetic. Firstly the gender ratio of engineers in e.g. Russia is more even, so let's just shoot that one down before c…

Totally side question - are you Russian by nature and language? If you are, I'm wondering if you ever feel limited by English as a language. Do you feel like you have bigger, better ideas in Russian?

You didn't ask me, but I am compelled to answer because its an interesting question, and, well, Russian is my native language.

Till the age of eleven, I was essentially speaking only Russian. They did teach us some pretty rudimentary English at school, just enough to ask for directions in a foreign country.

Then, my family moved to Canada, and I had to learn French. It took about 2 years to attain a native-level proficiency. Then, I learned English as a "second language" (actually third, of course) here in Canada.

French is the language I use most. Thus, my largest and most precise vocabulary is in French, and this is obviously the easiest language to express myself.

However, I don't feel constrained by a language while talking/writing in English or Russian. Worst case scenario, I have to turn to Google to translate some precise French word when the English equivalent does not come fast enough.

In general, I think in whatever language I am using at the moment, and the best ideas can come in any of those three languages.

Re: The future is emotional

#49

Post by Retra »

skybrian wrote: post #16
infinity0 wrote: post #9

I'm a bit annoyed at the constant background snide and subtle implication of these vague literary articles, that programmers are bad empathetically or emotionally. They use facts such as western programming culture being very male-dominated, and then twist this to imply that males are bad at being empathetic. Firstly the gender ratio of engineers in e.g. Russia is more even, so let's just shoot that one down before c…

There's a difference between empathy as a bonus and empathy as a job requirement. Traditionally, people who didn't fit in (the typical nerd stereotype, or maybe someone on the autistic spectrum) could do well as programmers, even if they lacked the sort of soft skills needed to do well in other positions. Of course, it always helps. But being able to accommodate people with different levels of social and/or emotional…

I'm reminded of a certain kind of irony I've faced multiple times in my life: people who think they are more "socially intelligent" than I finding the most awkward and graceless way of telling me they think I'm not as skilled at being comfortable and graceful as themselves.

Re: The future is emotional

#50

Post by skybrian »

throwaway91111 wrote: post #46
skybrian wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the "serious inherent problems" in calling it emotional labor?

Well, it's also highly physical. Cooking and cleaning take up a large chunk of the time and labor, even if you aren't technically required to do so.

Hmm, okay, let's say we compare: - Working in the back of the house in a restaurant - Someone who visits old people and also cooks and cleans for them.

The first one, while requiring skill and being a relatively low-paid job that a lot of people might not want to take, technically doesn't require customer interaction. (And perhaps not even much in the way of English skills, which makes it a more practical job for some immigrants.)

For the home visit, the actual cooking and cleaning, though important, might not actually be the most important reason they're there?

How should we talk about the difference?

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