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Texas Is Too Windy and Sunny for Old Energy Companies to Make Money

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Re: Texas Is Too Windy and Sunny for Old Energy Companies to Make Money

#31

Post by rayiner »

leephillips wrote: post #17
davidf18 wrote: post #10

I wonder what the economics would be without the federal tax incentives for wind and solar. Does anyone know? EDIT: Someone above provided a link that provides the figure I was looking for: "Between 2010 and 2016, subsidies for solar were between 10¢ and 88¢ per kWh and subsidies for wind were between 1.3¢ and 5.7¢ per kWh. Subsidies for coal, natural gas and nuclear are all between 0.05¢ and 0.2¢ per kWh over all ye…

It's a complex question. In trying to answer it, one should keep in mind that the tax incentives for fossil fuel production dwarf the $15 billion per year or so that supports renewable energy. In addition, fossil fuels impose an estimated $200 billion/yr in social costs (external costs), in the form of pollution, etc. And it would be hard to estimate how much of our defense spending should be attributed to the need t…

The Harvard study estimated the negative externalities of coal at 200-500 billion annually. The study estimates the effective subsidy from not including these costs at 9-27 cents per kilowatt hours.

Re: Texas Is Too Windy and Sunny for Old Energy Companies to Make Money

#32

Post by _JamesA_ »

sizzzzlerz wrote: post #6

It's surprising that this is allowed to happen by the Texas GOP lege. I would have expected them to either outlaw outright or severely hamper wind farms and other renewable energy business in favor of their big oil benefactors. The resulting screwing of the energy consumers is, as always, an extra benefit.

The deregulation has been pretty beneficial to consumers.

As long as you are willing to put up with the slight hassle of changing retail providers [1] every 3 to 6 months you can get service in the range of .05 - .07 per kwh.

[1]: www.powertochoose.org

Re: Texas Is Too Windy and Sunny for Old Energy Companies to Make Money

#33

Post by sremani »

rpedela wrote: post #14
davidf18 wrote: post #10

I wonder what the economics would be without the federal tax incentives for wind and solar. Does anyone know? EDIT: Someone above provided a link that provides the figure I was looking for: "Between 2010 and 2016, subsidies for solar were between 10¢ and 88¢ per kWh and subsidies for wind were between 1.3¢ and 5.7¢ per kWh. Subsidies for coal, natural gas and nuclear are all between 0.05¢ and 0.2¢ per kWh over all ye…

I don't know the economics specifically but coal, gas, oil are all subsidized too.

per kwh, they are miniscule compared to solar or wind. The scale difference between ONG and Solar-Wind is huge

Re: Texas Is Too Windy and Sunny for Old Energy Companies to Make Money

#34

Post by seattle_spring »

refurb wrote: post #22
sizzzzlerz wrote: post #6

It's surprising that this is allowed to happen by the Texas GOP lege. I would have expected them to either outlaw outright or severely hamper wind farms and other renewable energy business in favor of their big oil benefactors. The resulting screwing of the energy consumers is, as always, an extra benefit.

Let's take a closer look at this. If you're surprised the GOP is allowing this, then something about your assumptions are wrong. Either you're incorrectly assuming the GOP would actively legislate against wind farms or something else is happening. What do you think is the mostly likely explanation?

The "something else" would be that he or she is correctly assuming the GOP would actively legislate against wind farms.

Re: Texas Is Too Windy and Sunny for Old Energy Companies to Make Money

#35

Post by batbomb »

saryant wrote: post #23
skybrian wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, apparently [1] natural gas exports can be shifted to different markets faster than new solar power can come online? Not a bad thing if it replaces coal. [1] U.S. LNG exports shift to Europe from Asia http://www.reuters.com/article/usa-asia-lng-idUSL1N1FE4BG

This is exactly what I was referring to. LNG can be shifted across markets in a matter of days . Solar and wind don't have that flexibility.

It typically takes months and years to retrofit a coal plant for gas. That said, it's wildly more economic because you have to rebuild coal power plants every 12 years or so due to ware and tear

Re: Texas Is Too Windy and Sunny for Old Energy Companies to Make Money

#36

Post by tasty_freeze »

rpedela wrote: post #14
davidf18 wrote: post #10

I wonder what the economics would be without the federal tax incentives for wind and solar. Does anyone know? EDIT: Someone above provided a link that provides the figure I was looking for: "Between 2010 and 2016, subsidies for solar were between 10¢ and 88¢ per kWh and subsidies for wind were between 1.3¢ and 5.7¢ per kWh. Subsidies for coal, natural gas and nuclear are all between 0.05¢ and 0.2¢ per kWh over all ye…

I don't know the economics specifically but coal, gas, oil are all subsidized too.

Some fraction of the US military expense should be attributed to obtaining energy, both explicitly (eg, patrolling shipping lanes) and implicitly (as a superpower, we can get considerations other countries don't). I don't know enough about it to hazard a guess, but I'm hoping someone, somewhere, has done an analysis.

Re: Texas Is Too Windy and Sunny for Old Energy Companies to Make Money

#37

Post by eigenvector »

sizzzzlerz wrote: post #6

It's surprising that this is allowed to happen by the Texas GOP lege. I would have expected them to either outlaw outright or severely hamper wind farms and other renewable energy business in favor of their big oil benefactors. The resulting screwing of the energy consumers is, as always, an extra benefit.

Wind power is built and operated by massive multinationals too and their money is just as good as anyone elses. If politicians are interested in getting donations, I'm not sure why they would strangle a new industry rather than profiting from it themselves.

Re: Texas Is Too Windy and Sunny for Old Energy Companies to Make Money

#38

Post by Guthur »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #27
TeMPOraL wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you've prepaid for whatever power they'll produce for the next 30+ years Assuming they don't degrade completely in those 30 years. Also, I still wonder what's their EROI if you count in their manufacturing, transport and installation costs?

Solar panels degrade about 0.7 percent a year based on historical data for the last two decades; after 20 years they're still generating at 80+% of total output. This doesn't take into account the ridiculous cost decline curve we're seeing in solar, and that'll be a fraction of the cost to replace degraded capacity decades from now. http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/51664.pdf EROI has been positive for quite some tim…

It's positive but still no where near the scale of fossil fuels.

If you consider the likely energy need growth of society, exponential maybe, it is really hard to see how solar and wind will cut it.

Personally i think a full embracement of gen 4 or better nuclear power generation is the only way truly bring energy security.

Re: Texas Is Too Windy and Sunny for Old Energy Companies to Make Money

#39

Post by toomuchtodo »

Guthur wrote: post #38
toomuchtodo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar panels degrade about 0.7 percent a year based on historical data for the last two decades; after 20 years they're still generating at 80+% of total output. This doesn't take into account the ridiculous cost decline curve we're seeing in solar, and that'll be a fraction of the cost to replace degraded capacity decades from now. http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/51664.pdf EROI has been positive for quite some tim…

It's positive but still no where near the scale of fossil fuels. If you consider the likely energy need growth of society, exponential maybe, it is really hard to see how solar and wind will cut it. Personally i think a full embracement of gen 4 or better nuclear power generation is the only way truly bring energy security.

You're completely off the mark. Enough energy from the sun hits the Earth in an hour or two to power humanity for a year. It's simply a matter of scaling up.

Nuclear is already dead at current wind and solar generation costs.

Re: Texas Is Too Windy and Sunny for Old Energy Companies to Make Money

#40

Post by supremesaboteur »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #28
refurb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take a closer look at this. If you're surprised the GOP is allowing this, then something about your assumptions are wrong. Either you're incorrectly assuming the GOP would actively legislate against wind farms or something else is happening. What do you think is the mostly likely explanation?

A quick search on Google reveals that GOP legislators in at least Indiana and Wyoming are working to actively legislate against wind farms. So, it certainly has precedent. edit: and here's an article that explicitly talks about how GOP members are trying to undermine wind power generation in Texas. https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2017/02/14/propos...

The link from that article explicitly states that it will not shut down the wind farm : http://www.dailyadvance.com/News/2017/01/25/Jones-Bill-won-t...
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