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6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

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Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#441
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're talking about something different to the main thread here. Most people here are talking about a professional context where there is a significant power imbalance between the parties. Context is important.

I was specifically responding to the claim that 'unwanted advances' could be considered sexual harassment under the law. yes, technically you could consider rape to be an 'unwanted advance', but no reasonable person would ever characterize it as so. The very fact that it's characterized as an unwanted advance tells you it's not sexual harassment, it's just someone chasing another person.

> The very fact that it's characterized as an unwanted advance

http://www.aauw.org/what-we-do/legal-resources/know-your-rig...

> Sexual harassment is a form of sex discrimination that violates Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Very generally, “sexual harassment” describes unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, or other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature.

Federal law appears to disagree with you.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#442
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Everything" hasn't become sexual harassment. I've dated coworkers. I have been rebuffed by coworkers. I have even been under the impression that a coworker might be into me who was not. And--somehow--I have not been accused of sexual harassment. Maybe because I am respectful in my approach, cut it out if it's not appreciated, and never persist past being rebuffed. The "misunderstandings" about which you wring your h…

I must be a horrible human being for having a differing opinion.

This isn't about "differing opinions", this is about "your opinion has a demonstrable harmful effect on the culture in which we all live." Choosing to excuse sexual harassment is real awful but you can always choose to not be awful. So cut the pity party and get down from that cross you've put yourself on.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#443

This guy had to do SO MUCH bad shit before he was finally called out and I think it speaks to a major problem with Silicon Valley. I've been working with startups since 2011 and in that time I've seen: -A Head of HR who gave promotions to his employees based on sexual favors given. This person happened to be friends with the CEO and employees got in trouble for reporting him. -A founder and dealing with the above sit…

People don't know what an absolute greedy cesspool silicon valley is. It's money. It's human nature.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#444
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a legit question (especially out of curiosity) but one that takes a surprising amount of energy to answer precisely. I might be able to do that tomorrow, but in the meantime here are some answers in the same vein. It's all the same principle, but the details vary. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix&page=0&dateRange=... Edit: I wrote some more downthread at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14627388…

I haven't read this thread yet but I'm curious why the downvote mechanism isn't sufficient moderation in a case like this. HN has been a superb place for discussion of issues relating to workplace harassment and it seems that having certain ideas forbidden is likely to harm the discussion.

It's because comments can have troll effects even when they're downvoted or flagged.

There's a difference between expressing a view and setting this place on fire. There's no view that can't be expressed substantively and thoughtfully if one has a mind to, but it takes work. Throwing fuel on the fire or sand in the gears is different; that's vandalism, and it destroys the free exchange of views by ruining the container—the community and site—that supports it. The container is fragile and needs protecting.

People mostly do this without realizing how destructive it is. Dealing with it requires moderators whose role is to protect the commons. That's how HN still exists as a place for (hopefully) thoughtful discussion. We'll never all agree about where to draw the line every time, but that's secondary to the point that someone needs to.

A comment crosses into trolling when it does things that are known to ruin thoughtful discussion, whether that is the intent or not. I chided the commenter upthread because they were going much further than merely (say) arguing against a rush to judgment about the OP—they were signalling bad faith with polemical swipes (e.g. 'Your prejudice that in general, "men are pigs"'). That is not thoughtful discussion, it's destructive of it.

When we ask commenters not to do this, reactions vary. Some react by taking responsibility and learn how not to produce such effects in online conversation. Many HN users have gone through that process. I had to go through it myself (it took years); I used to optimize for snark and venting too as much as the next person. If HN has anything superb about it, to use your word, it's because of the community members who do this work.

Other commenters prefer melodrama. They proclaim they're being 'censored' for their 'unpopular opinions' by mods who 'can't handle the truth', then storm out the front door with an 'enjoy your circlejerk' or two. (Typically they then walk around the building, come back in and start over with a new account.) This is the 'help help I'm being repressed' phase of the internet cycle of life. It will never go way, but I'm confident that most neutral readers notice the same signs of bad faith that mods were reacting to. How do I know that? Because otherwise our job would be impossible.

In the end the root distinction isn't about what view a commenter has on this or that topic, it's the difference between users who comment with care for the whole and those who don't. Sometimes that's because they're so agitated that they lack the self-control to do anything other than toss a hot potato into the thread. (It happens to everyone.) But often it's just that they haven't yet learned about this dynamic and why it matters. Once somebody gets that, they're motivated to participate in the community quite differently—but it isn't a question of changing their views, becoming more 'conformist' or 'groupthink' or any of that sort of thing people say. It's more akin to not littering in a city park, or to taking good care of a campsite.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#445
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must be a horrible human being for having a differing opinion.

This isn't about "differing opinions", this is about "your opinion has a demonstrable harmful effect on the culture in which we all live." Choosing to excuse sexual harassment is real awful but you can always choose to not be awful . So cut the pity party and get down from that cross you've put yourself on.

“Of all the tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under the omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber barons cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

- CS Lewis.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#446
post #441
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was specifically responding to the claim that 'unwanted advances' could be considered sexual harassment under the law. yes, technically you could consider rape to be an 'unwanted advance', but no reasonable person would ever characterize it as so. The very fact that it's characterized as an unwanted advance tells you it's not sexual harassment, it's just someone chasing another person.

> The very fact that it's characterized as an unwanted advance http://www.aauw.org/what-we-do/legal-resources/know-your-rig... > Sexual harassment is a form of sex discrimination that violates Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Very generally, “sexual harassment” describes unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, or other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature. Federal law appears to disa…

no it doesn't.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean that we should change the laws, so that the former grey area becomes the new illegal area; but rather that we should have a stricter attitude about the grey area. Sometimes people's attitude about these things is that, they acknowledge they are wrong, but since nothing illegal happened, they won't say or do anything. That's the grey area I'm talking about -- where there is broad acknowledgement that some…

> This gray area exists because the law needs to operate under the presumption of innocence, defining crimes unambiguously and prosecuting them with due regard for reasonable doubt -- it is deliberately narrow and permissive, because the state is very powerful and if not held to strict limits it becomes very dangerous. That is the theory everyone refers to when they're trying to justify imposing harsh penalties. Have…

> Gray areas are gray because they contain both and bathwater.

There is a grey area like that but that is not the grey area I am talking about.

To a consider an example you mentioned previously: it's fine to just not ever touch your coworkers. Another example is ethnic jokes: these are not illegal but do you need to do this at work? Staying out of the gray area is not a matter of harsh punishment but rather on insisting on professionalism and decorum.

It is only when people have strayed so far from that -- normalising deviance for themselves -- that you find yourself in a place where harsh punishment is even thinkable. One would not need or apply harsh punishments for matters of decorum.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#448
post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women who don't say "no" for the first time are widely considered low-moral, not to mention that the first approach may be unexpected for her, so timeout is needed. And men who can truly see whether she's really uncomfortable or just playing well-known game can be counted on fingers. It seems that this rule, as you state it, leaves no legal room for regular, not very confident or skilled people to "interact".

> Women who don't say "no" for the first time are widely considered low-moral There is no "low morality" in a woman accepting an invitation to go on a date even in the most hidebound parts of the United States. But that's not what you mean. You don't mean "interact". You mean "screw". That you're conflating the idea of "regular, not very confident or skilled people" interacting with women with its very small subset,…

Of course it's no low morality in accepting a date. But I thought we discuss this in context of loose sexual behavior (implied by the article events), not of going on dates or making relationships. As of interact vs screw, it is the matter of accent, not of an objective view. Please don't take my words out of context, nor make a personal diagnosis. Proving [not your] point by attacking the person under his uncertain inferences is not a great way to deliver an argument anyway.

How do you have brief experiences, btw?

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the first time I've heard somebody try to fly the lame excuse that they're not guilty of doing something they actually did, because they were too stupid to know it was illegal. https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/republicans-emergin...

> the lame excuse that they're not guilty That's not what they said at all. > > That seems like a reasonable distinction to make, though both can have the same moral fault and/or commit the same crime ; motivation is important when we look towards someone's character . Stop rounding people to stereotypes.

Yes it is what they said, actually:

"And I'm not saying X, but X." where "X" = "it's her fault".

Just because you deny what you're about to say in the same sentence just before you say it, doesn't mean you didn't say it.

So what is your motivation for defending someone who's trying to shift the blame to the victim of sexual harassment, and how does that speak to your character?

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#450
post #440
post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I for one can't wait for it to pass. We have people running around calling words violence, catcalling rape, and normal human sexuality sexual harassment. And you can't ask for balance and fairness in the discussion without being told you're pro-rape or part of the problem. No one is pro-rape, but the things being labeled as rape right now are outlandish. Rape is a violent act, it's not some jackass standing on a corn…

> but the things being labeled as rape right now are outlandish Do you have any examples? (I'd prefer some with links, please).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9ImSupXt3g
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