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6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

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Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#181

Post by pyre »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #26
vkou wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it involves serial harassers, the ability to get many she-saids becomes easy, too. Do you really think that founders are lining up to put their personal and professional reputation on the line, to smear this guy, as part of a vast female conspiracy? They have fucking text messages to back their story up. Are those easy to fabricate too, when it comes to rich and powerful people?

No, I don't. But do you think it's reasonable to crucify him before any investigation happens? My comment was a bit too female-focused. It wasn't about she-said's or a female conspiracy, but rather the ease of getting people to smear someone that has enemies. It's hard not to notice that the claim of sexual harassment is as equally damaging now as being called a communist was in the 50's. It's obviously quite differe…

> claim of sexual harassment is as equally damaging now as being called a communist was in the 50's

I dispute this very much. For example, you have people like Chris Brown that can turn their girlfriend into a human punching bag... and nothing happens to them. They just say that they are sorry, and keep in making money hand over fist (and even get women on Twitter saying things like "he can punch me any day").

It is documented that he was beating the crap out her, and he has suffered no ill consequences, or lack of popularity. I'm pretty sure that this does not match up with being called a communist in 1950's America.

> No, I don't. But do you think it's reasonable to crucify him before any investigation happens?

He has come out with a statement basically admitting to it after completely denying it.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#182

Post by genericpseudo »

tptacek wrote: post #159
HarryHirsch wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno. Who would be interested to work alongside or for someone who abuses his power to harass women? You'd think that many men would prefer politeness and professionalism over a fratboy outfit. You have to establish boundaries with the alpha oaf, at times you feel ashamed for someone else's behaviour or need to apologize and so on. If you frame the issue as a "women's problem" you ignore these aspects, and they shou…

It has not at all been my experience, at any point in my career, no matter which group of men that I've worked with, that passively observing a man exhibiting or talking about aggressive sexual behavior has been a dealbreaker. That's not to say harassment and abuse aren't dealbreakers for the men I've worked with; for most of them, it is. But it has to be spelled out for them. A victim has to speak up about it. It ha…

At a previous company, I worked with someone in a recent highly-public sexism scandal (if I said who or where, I would no longer be a genericpseudo).

I knew that the person was extremely brash and was told that they indulged in "locker-room talk", though I didn't personally observe any harassing behavior. I didn't speak up about what I heard. I wish I had. I wonder, and worry, if anything as bad as what happened at their next company happened at the company I worked at. I'm really uncomfortable with the odds that it did.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#183

Post by bherms »

_RPM wrote: post #9
radicalbyte wrote: post #7

One of the girls interviewed on Startup Podcast mentioned that a VC propositioned her; like these girls she was Asian. I wonder if this guy is the same alleged pervert?

All of his victims are Asian in this case.

An Asian colleague of mine also was subject to inappropriate behavior from him a few years back.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#184

Post by taysic »

niniane wrote: post #58
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it involves rich or powerful people, the ability to get many she-said's becomes easier. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but due process exists for a reason. We should reserve judgement until the investigation progresses further.

I am one of the three women who went on the record: Niniane Wang. I'm one of the "she-said"s. I have nothing to gain from this. I am not suing. I'm founder & CEO of a Greylock-funded startup. Thankfully Greylock has come out in full support, but I didn't know that beforehand and was very nervous when I decided to do the article. The only way that any reporter would agree to publish was if I used my real name. I knew…

As a fellow lady who has bootstrapped her business, and knows nothing about the VC world - I just want to say thank you. You coming out in the open has made the environment better for all of us. Seriously, thanks.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#185

Post by pyre »

jonstewart wrote: post #167
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your response changed my mind on the matter, so thank you. It's especially relevant given how all of this played out. (See the other thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14621765 and subsequent admission https://www.axios.com/justin-caldbeck-takes-indefinite-leave... ) Any ideas for recognizing situations where a bit of skepticism is warranted vs situations like this? In this case, I'm a little saddened that m…

What due process are you looking for, precisely? Is it a practical standard to apply? Sexual harassment is not itself a crime, so it's unlikely he'll be indicted and tried. Also, "due process" has a broad meaning that goes beyond "jury trial". A good faith investigation by a journalist with six sources, three on the record, could certainly be viewed as due process.

> A good faith investigation by a journalist with six sources, three on the record, could certainly be viewed as due process.

But @sillysaurus3 basically said that there is no amount of evidence that could satisfy "reasonable doubt" with this statement:

> When it involves rich or powerful people, the ability to get many she-said's becomes easier.

This statement basically says that gathering multiple claims and multiple accounts/allegations cannot be proof against a rich or powerful person because of some inherent propensity of women to come out of the woodwork to lodge harassment/assault claims against rich/powerful/famous people. So once you are rich and powerful you immediately win all he-said/she-said situations because people have to give you the "benefit of the doubt." (not that I agree with this statement)

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#186

Post by sillysaurus3 »

pyre wrote: post #185
jonstewart wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What due process are you looking for, precisely? Is it a practical standard to apply? Sexual harassment is not itself a crime, so it's unlikely he'll be indicted and tried. Also, "due process" has a broad meaning that goes beyond "jury trial". A good faith investigation by a journalist with six sources, three on the record, could certainly be viewed as due process.

> A good faith investigation by a journalist with six sources, three on the record, could certainly be viewed as due process. But @sillysaurus3 basically said that there is no amount of evidence that could satisfy "reasonable doubt" with this statement: > When it involves rich or powerful people, the ability to get many she-said's becomes easier. This statement basically says that gathering multiple claims and multip…

No, it had nothing to do with women, and I resent that implication. I notice you saw the subthread where I articulated that it had nothing to do with women yet still posted a comment insinuating it does: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14621640

It's not a controversial observation that rich and powerful people can acquire enemies, and some of them have been slandered by the press.

It was difficult to separate that situation from this one. I assure you, I'm a reasonable and thoughtful person and it's not fair to say that I basically said there's no amount of evidence that can satisfy a claim against a powerful person.

The original comment was "Maybe we should wait to see how this plays out before making any judgements." Nothing more.

This whole conversation was a request for more information, so if you're going to throw me under the bus for it, you'll just push those who want to ask harmless questions further into the camp of "I shouldn't say a word." And when people have beliefs that seem reasonable to them, this can be a harmful situation when those beliefs are false.

For example, it seemed perfectly reasonable to me that a journalist shouldn't wield the power to destroy someone's reputation without any independent oversight. It's a simple proposition with simple, obvious consequences. But pointing out that no investigation is going to occur helped me realize that it's an absurd standard.

EDIT: Also, most of my comments received around 8 upvotes. They've been bouncing up and down, but the point is, clearly a lot of people felt similarly. So by voicing these concerns, it probably changed a lot more minds than my own. Talking this out and being open with it seems like a good thing.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#187

Post by cortesoft »

limeblack wrote: post #48

As someone who had 3 male teachers in middle and high school fired because of sexual commments I'm still not sure how to respond to stuff like this. I'm always concerned how someones carrier might be altered considering someone could be lying.

Well if you see his statement, they weren't lying.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#188

Post by thethirdone »

ebola1717 wrote: post #138
handedness wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the nature of sexual harassment, and the often power imbalance between the harasser and victim, naturally provides the harasser with all the advantages. That is correct in cases where harassment has occurred, yes. In cases of false accusation, though, the accuser has nearly all of the advantages. And it's not as if it never happens, either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Estim... https://en.…

Your links say we can believe these allegations with 90-98% confidence. Actually, multiply that by 6 women, and that's 99.9999% confidence, assuming the low end of that. My request services only have to have a 99.9% success rate.

That's assuming that the false accusations are statistically independent. I would expect false accusations to be more common in cases with more accusers.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#189

Post by xsmasher »

solotronics wrote: post #42

Serious question, does free speech apply in these situations? You have the unalienable right to speak your mind and some people may be offended but that is not illegal. I totally understand if you are employed by someone you can't easily get away if you are made uncomfortable but this is entirely a voluntary situation. Also, if you really think about it making something that makes someone uncomfortable illegal is wei…

You're reducing some pretty vile behavior - "groped women who sought out advice or pitched him for investments, sent them lurid texts late at night and harassed them with unwanted sexual propositions" down to its least objectionable description - free speech, and "something that makes someone uncomfortable" like someone who "farts too much".

Do you think that groping women, lurid texts late at night, and harassing them with unwanted sexual propositions is objectionable behavior? If so, why are you trying to downplay it to just "annoying behavior?"

BTW no lawsuits have been filed (yet) so "illegal" doesn't enter into it.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#190

Post by literallycancer »

tptacek wrote: post #159
HarryHirsch wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno. Who would be interested to work alongside or for someone who abuses his power to harass women? You'd think that many men would prefer politeness and professionalism over a fratboy outfit. You have to establish boundaries with the alpha oaf, at times you feel ashamed for someone else's behaviour or need to apologize and so on. If you frame the issue as a "women's problem" you ignore these aspects, and they shou…

It has not at all been my experience, at any point in my career, no matter which group of men that I've worked with, that passively observing a man exhibiting or talking about aggressive sexual behavior has been a dealbreaker. That's not to say harassment and abuse aren't dealbreakers for the men I've worked with; for most of them, it is. But it has to be spelled out for them. A victim has to speak up about it. It ha…

There's some value in being able to talk bluntly with other men. And I'm not sure it's much worse than what I observed groups of women talking about.
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