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6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

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Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#121

Post by xenadu02 »

solotronics wrote: post #42

Serious question, does free speech apply in these situations? You have the unalienable right to speak your mind and some people may be offended but that is not illegal. I totally understand if you are employed by someone you can't easily get away if you are made uncomfortable but this is entirely a voluntary situation. Also, if you really think about it making something that makes someone uncomfortable illegal is wei…

The canonical example of the limits of free speech: You can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater.

Similarly, you can't run toward someone screaming, pull back like you're going to throw a punch, then claim innocence when charged with assault. There are numerous court cases that draw various lines. Courts have recognized people sometimes say "I'll kill you" but without any actual intent. They also recognize sometimes threats are veiled and spoken in coded language to give the superficial appearance of acceptability... but the threats are just as real as pulling back in a punching motion.

Much sexual harassment falls into the latter category. Rarely to abusers (male or female) come right out and say "sleep with me or you're fired / I'll tank your funding round / I'll call your loan", though that does happen. By far the most common case is subtle suggestions or inferences that things will be easier for you if you go along with it.

In general it is best to avoid anything that appears romantic whenever there is a power imbalance. As a VC, you shouldn't be hitting on founders. If you think there is mutual attraction there then send that person to a friend at a different VC or wait for the funding rounds to close and assign the company to a different partner. Even then it is risky - the target of your affection may feel like they need to play along or you'll start bad-mouthing them and it will crush their business. When the target of your affection says "Sorry, I have a partner / boyfriend / girlfriend" it is a very clear signal they are not interested.

Even better advice is: don't. There is a wide pool of potential partners. Why are you so desperate to find a pickup among your founders / subordinates? Hint: usually because you're taking advantage of them! In this case the most likely explanation is the guy wanted to have some affairs and thought hooking up with founders would be an easy score. What those women thought or felt was entirely beneath his notice.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#122

Post by Mz »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #119
Mz wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I have seen, this is more about who has power. Men tend to have more power than women. When the roles are reversed, women will sexually harass men. We need to work on coming up with ways to create a world in which power is less likely to lead to this type of abuse. I think that starts with generally having healthier attitudes surrounding sexuality.

It's not just power. Men and women have somewhat different distributions of personalities. Women, on average, are more willing to try to smooth things over rather than engage in explicit conflict. If you flip the genders, then on average, abuse of power will cause outright conflict sooner rather than after it has built up to completely unacceptable levels.

I'm a woman. I feel strongly that it is nigh impossible to clearly determine how much of gender difference is really due to innate biological tendencies and how much is due to social crap shaping the genders differently.

A cousin of mine commented on being a Navy recruiter and calling his wife to come sit at the office because of teenaged girls showing up at the recruiting office and trying to hang on him. He was very worried about how this would be perceived and he did not know how to turn them away. He was over 6 feet tall and scared of what these "little girls" would do to his career. The only effective solution he could find was to call his wife and have her in the office when they showed up.

I really think it is far more complicated than most people want to believe. Seeing the world in black-and-white, simple terms is just easier to cope with. But it usually is not an accurate assessment of reality.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#123

Post by handedness »

ithinkinstereo wrote: post #79
sp332 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Updating your risk assessment doesn't mean you 100% believe someone is guilty. I stand away from cliff edges even if I'm pretty sure I'm not going to trip and fall to my death. And it's not like we haven't heard both sides: he already released two statements.

His statements are pretty damning and all but confirm this is all true. Edit: here is his statement Obviously, I am deeply disturbed by these allegations. While significant context is missing from the incidents reported by The Information, I deeply regret ever causing anyone to feel uncomfortable. The fact is that I have been privileged to have worked with female entrepreneurs throughout my career and I sincerely apo…

> Judge for yourself.

Why the need to judge? Whether he's guilty or innocent, it's a tragic story for all involved, and it's not our job to make that decision: this is why we have a legal system on which our society is founded.

Now, if I had a direct relationship with Mr. Caldbeck I would certainly make my own estimations and act accordingly, but I don't understand why everyone feels this need to act as judge and jury of everything that happens. That tendency isn't one of the better aspects of our nature.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#124

Post by leereeves »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #119
Mz wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I have seen, this is more about who has power. Men tend to have more power than women. When the roles are reversed, women will sexually harass men. We need to work on coming up with ways to create a world in which power is less likely to lead to this type of abuse. I think that starts with generally having healthier attitudes surrounding sexuality.

It's not just power. Men and women have somewhat different distributions of personalities. Women, on average, are more willing to try to smooth things over rather than engage in explicit conflict. If you flip the genders, then on average, abuse of power will cause outright conflict sooner rather than after it has built up to completely unacceptable levels.

In our present culture, men rarely report sexual harassment or domestic violence, believing (correctly) that they won't be believed or will be expected to endure (or enjoy) it. And direct confrontation often leads to male victims being charged.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#125

Post by rayiner »

gizmo686 wrote: post #97
coldtea wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because men founders deal with sexual harassment (that they don't cause to others) often?

That is not the point. There are two ways to view the problem: it is either a women's problem, or a people problem that dissproportionantly affects women. By framing it as a womens problem, you are turning it into an issue of identity politics, with all the pros and cons that come with it. (eg, stronger solidarity from the in-group, at the expanse of alienating the out-group, as well as the growing backlash to identi…

Harassment is a problem that affects people in common, and men specifically and women specifically. Harassment against men versus women shares many things in common, but is not exactly the same. For example, a man who is harassed might have to contend with other men saying "why are you upset some woman is interested in you?" Conversely, a woman will often have to deal with harassment while already dealing with the challenges of being a distinct minority in her workplace. When you frame the problem as a "people problem," you excise discussion of the dynamics of its specific incarnations.

It's like how sickle cell anemia can affect anyone, but particularly affects African Americans. Obviously it's important to look at the problem at the general level. But no prudent biologist would ignore looking at the disease in the context of African Americans specifically, out of a misguided notion of race blindness.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#126

Post by hackinthebochs »

go42 wrote: post #65
hackinthebochs wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Recent events have shown that you can flat out admit to drugging women in order to have sex with them Quaaludes was a party drug in its day, taken specifically for its effects. The fact that he acquired the drug to have sex with women doesn't imply he used it to rape them.

He admitted in the deposition (10-years ago) for the current trial that he gave the girl Benadryl to relax. I've never known any guy ever to give a girl Benadryl. If she is sick, take care of her. Don't dose her and have sex with her.

I'm not sure how that's relevant to the point I made.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#127

Post by kaitai »

coldtea wrote: post #105
sp332 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, I am kinda against internet mobs. But I don't see a way to form a consensus about whether this guy is guilty or not, or what to do about it if he is. At the same time, we do need some kind of defense mechanism to make sure people are secure. We can't just let everything slide because we're perpetually waiting for more evidence.

> At the same time, we do need some kind of defense mechanism to make sure people are secure. Well, how about the law? > We can't just let everything slide because we're perpetually waiting for more evidence. But it's not 'sliding', it's going to court. And it doesn't concern us anyway -- it's not like we witnessed it in real life and didn't speak out.

Hitting on women inappropriately isn't illegal. Being a slimy VC and using your position to meet the ladies isn't illegal. Nor is sending explicit texts, as long as the target isn't underaged and you're not technically stalking them. Not investing in some guy's company because you think he is ugly or you hate his dad isn't illegal, either.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#128

Post by dragonwriter »

solotronics wrote: post #42

Serious question, does free speech apply in these situations? You have the unalienable right to speak your mind and some people may be offended but that is not illegal. I totally understand if you are employed by someone you can't easily get away if you are made uncomfortable but this is entirely a voluntary situation. Also, if you really think about it making something that makes someone uncomfortable illegal is wei…

> Serious question, does free speech apply in these situations?

Free speech does not extend to groping. It's quite likely that many acts of mere harassment (supposing they don't, e.g., explicitly or implicitly condition exchange of money for sex,where then it gets into soliciting prostitution) is legal in a VC-to-founder rather than employer-employee situation.

OTOH, even the acts that may be legal are still newsworthy; not every act of public concern violates a law.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#129

Post by mrkurt »

stickfigure wrote: post #62
sp332 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due process is for criminal charges and sentencing. It doesn't apply anywhere else. [Edit: OK and other state stuff. Point stands.] Even if you sue someone, you only need a "preponderance of evidence" and not to prove beyond reasonable doubt. Outside of a courtroom, you can literally make up anything you want. For example, if you're a founder and you hear a rumor of a VC being a serial harasser, you might decide to s…

Judging others based on unsubstantiated rumors creates a toxic environment too. We can behave better than that.

Good journalism, multiple sources, and multiple _named_ sources is pretty good substantiation.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#130

Post by metellus »

solotronics wrote: post #42

Serious question, does free speech apply in these situations? You have the unalienable right to speak your mind and some people may be offended but that is not illegal. I totally understand if you are employed by someone you can't easily get away if you are made uncomfortable but this is entirely a voluntary situation. Also, if you really think about it making something that makes someone uncomfortable illegal is wei…

First off, groping is very clearly not free speech. Next up, power dynamics matter. A random person hitting on you may be annoying. Your boss hitting on you and implying that you will lose your job unless you comply (or in this case, that you will lose funding) is coercion and also pretty clearly not okay.
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