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To Stay in Love, Sign on the Dotted Line

nytimes.com

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Re: To Stay in Love, Sign on the Dotted Line

#61

Post by iagreeentirely »

simonsarris wrote: post #6

> We were together for almost a decade, and in that time I somehow lost track of my own habits and preferences. If I wanted to split the grocery bill, he suggested I buy only things we both liked. If I wanted to spend weekends together, I could go skiing with him and his friends. And so I did. I made my life look like his. > It wasn’t until I moved out that I began to see that there hadn’t been room for me in my rela…

I've long felt that those of us with odd relationship needs had a leg-up here. The fact that the sort of things I find sexually fulfilling aren't what you should spring on someone mid-coitus has made necessary my whole adult life a level of candidness that I don't see in the romantic relationships of my friends.

The fact that I need to have those conversations early makes a lot of other conversations very easy to have; any relationship I'm in started with one of those discussions going well.

Re: To Stay in Love, Sign on the Dotted Line

#62

Post by rayiner »

monksy wrote: post #19

I believe that this is a concerning side effect of the increasing inability for people to communicate and to trust others. A contract is just to re-enforce an insecurity on both parties in a relationship. I'm all for discussing things even in that great detail to avoid conflict before hand. But a contract seems excessive and will probably be thrown away anyways. [Soapbox] I'm convinced that most people are completely…

People weren't able to better intuit the private minds of others back in the day. Instead, what's changed is that expectations used to be externally (socially, legally) imposed in the past, and now they are not. What was the expectation regarding marriage? You were going to get married before you had sex. What was the expectation regarding kids? You were going to have kids soon after you got married. What was the expectation regarding monogamy (see the author's point)? Not being monogamous was not an option. What should you do with your extra time/money? You didn't have any so it was a moot point. All that is up for negotiation now. The contract just makes that explicit instead of pretending that all those points of agreement can be achieved without formal discussion.

Re: To Stay in Love, Sign on the Dotted Line

#64

Post by dragonwriter »

monksy wrote: post #19

I believe that this is a concerning side effect of the increasing inability for people to communicate and to trust others. A contract is just to re-enforce an insecurity on both parties in a relationship. I'm all for discussing things even in that great detail to avoid conflict before hand. But a contract seems excessive and will probably be thrown away anyways. [Soapbox] I'm convinced that most people are completely…

> A contract is just to re-enforce an insecurity on both parties in a relationship.

A true, enforceable legal contract, yes.

A written agreement that is called a “contract” that isn't focussed on being a basis for litigation in the event of failure can, however, serve as a mechanism for clear and unambiguous communication, which is needed alongside trust in a relationship.

Re: To Stay in Love, Sign on the Dotted Line

#65

Post by zzalpha »

pmarreck wrote: post #14

Intimidated by divorce statistics (a $50 billion industry in the US alone, 30-50% chance, etc.) and by a spate of divorces among my friends whose weddings I attended, Stephanie and I decided to do a domestic partnership. So far so good.

Intimidated by divorce statistics (a $50 billion industry in the US alone, 30-50% chance, etc.)

FYI: Those statistics are incredibly misleading and/or inaccurate.

Do you know what the divorce rate is for 35-44 (and 45-54) year old college graduates? Somewhere around 10%:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/marriage-isnt-dead-yet/

Re: To Stay in Love, Sign on the Dotted Line

#66

Post by rayiner »

maxander wrote: post #57
monksy wrote: post #19

I believe that this is a concerning side effect of the increasing inability for people to communicate and to trust others. A contract is just to re-enforce an insecurity on both parties in a relationship. I'm all for discussing things even in that great detail to avoid conflict before hand. But a contract seems excessive and will probably be thrown away anyways. [Soapbox] I'm convinced that most people are completely…

What exactly is the important difference between "discussing things in great detail to avoid conflict" and "having a contract"? When problems come up, is a contract more likely to be disregarded because it is written down? Is half an hour on a laptop an "excessive" cost? I don't understand your argument in the slightest. It may, of course, be true that a contract is only a good idea due to insufficient communication…

Note that we did have contracts in the past. Marriage was a contractual relationship--quite a specific one, with the law defining many sorts of obligations--long before it was recast in modern ideas of romantic love.

Re: To Stay in Love, Sign on the Dotted Line

#67

Post by dragonwriter »

_RPM wrote: post #3

Sounds strange, and horrible. A relationship isn't a business.`

A relationship that proceeds beyond mere friendship to substantial sharing of resources and responsibilities is, including actual marriage and marriage-like partnerships are very much like business partnerships with other things layered on top, and actually the formation of economic partnerships is historically a key function of marriage.

Re: To Stay in Love, Sign on the Dotted Line

#68

Post by creepydata »

zzalpha wrote: post #65
pmarreck wrote: post #14

Intimidated by divorce statistics (a $50 billion industry in the US alone, 30-50% chance, etc.) and by a spate of divorces among my friends whose weddings I attended, Stephanie and I decided to do a domestic partnership. So far so good.

Intimidated by divorce statistics (a $50 billion industry in the US alone, 30-50% chance, etc.) FYI: Those statistics are incredibly misleading and/or inaccurate. Do you know what the divorce rate is for 35-44 (and 45-54) year old college graduates? Somewhere around 10%: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/marriage-isnt-dead-yet/

Exactly.

The spike in divorces starting in the 1970s can be largely attributed to the woman's liberation movement and is most likely a historic anomaly in the long term view.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/upshot/the-divorce-surge-...

>“Two-thirds of divorces are initiated by women,” said William Doherty, a marriage therapist and professor of family social science at University of Minnesota, “so when you’re talking about changes in divorce rates, in many ways you’re talking about changes in women’s expectations.”

>In the 1950s and 1960s, marriage was about a breadwinner husband and a homemaker wife, who both needed the other’s contributions to the household but didn’t necessarily spend much time together. In the 1970s, all that changed.

>Ultimately, a long view is likely to show that the rapid rise in divorce during the 1970s and early 1980s was an anomaly. It occurred at the same time as a new feminist movement, which caused social and economic upheaval. Today, society has adapted, and the divorce rate has declined again.

>If current trends continue, nearly two-thirds of marriages will never involve a divorce, according to data from Justin Wolfers, a University of Michigan economist (who also contributes to The Upshot).

That's for the general population. As mentioned above certain populations (college educated, older, high income) are much less likely to get divorced.

Furthermore, people like the GP act like marriage and divorce is just a diceroll. However, you can do many, many things to decrease your likelihood of divorcing. Openly communicating about expectations before marriage is one of them.

Re: To Stay in Love, Sign on the Dotted Line

#69

Post by monksy »

dragonwriter wrote: post #64
monksy wrote: post #19

I believe that this is a concerning side effect of the increasing inability for people to communicate and to trust others. A contract is just to re-enforce an insecurity on both parties in a relationship. I'm all for discussing things even in that great detail to avoid conflict before hand. But a contract seems excessive and will probably be thrown away anyways. [Soapbox] I'm convinced that most people are completely…

> A contract is just to re-enforce an insecurity on both parties in a relationship. A true, enforceable legal contract, yes. A written agreement that is called a “contract” that isn't focussed on being a basis for litigation in the event of failure can, however, serve as a mechanism for clear and unambiguous communication, which is needed alongside trust in a relationship.

Instead of litigation, it becomes a conflict in the relationship and it would be used to trap someone into a situation they may not want to be in. (yes, they can walk away.. but the reason for resolving the relationship would stil be the cause of: "I agreed to something, and then changed my mind")

Re: To Stay in Love, Sign on the Dotted Line

#70

Post by monksy »

rayiner wrote: post #62
monksy wrote: post #19

I believe that this is a concerning side effect of the increasing inability for people to communicate and to trust others. A contract is just to re-enforce an insecurity on both parties in a relationship. I'm all for discussing things even in that great detail to avoid conflict before hand. But a contract seems excessive and will probably be thrown away anyways. [Soapbox] I'm convinced that most people are completely…

People weren't able to better intuit the private minds of others back in the day. Instead, what's changed is that expectations used to be externally (socially, legally) imposed in the past, and now they are not. What was the expectation regarding marriage? You were going to get married before you had sex. What was the expectation regarding kids? You were going to have kids soon after you got married. What was the exp…

That's one of the great things about traditional gender roles. It's well defined about what's expected of you in the relationship and addressing the other person's needs becomes easier. (Rather than mixing the two and neglecting based only on what you don't want to do.. which is going on today)
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