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The new, subtle ways the rich signal their wealth

bbc.com

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Re: The new, subtle ways the rich signal their wealth

#41

Post by nopinsight »

vilmosi wrote: post #40
nopinsight wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many poor people in developing countries who sacrifice a lot of things and save every bit they can to invest in the education of their children. This phenomenon is very pronounced in China and several countries with Confucius influence. Families with this kind of mindset are unlikely to stay poor for more than 1-2 generations. (This is probably one reason why hundreds of millions in China arose from poverty…

> Families with this kind of mindset are unlikely to stay poor for more than 1-2 generations. (This is probably one reason why hundreds of millions in China arose from poverty to middle-class in a single generation, although I do not see many economists in the West discussing it in the context of China's rise.) What? China's economic boom has little to do with their view on education. They "simply" moved from farmers…

I said "one reason why...". I am aware that there are other forces at work for China's rise. However, if you look at many other countries on the verge of industrialization, for example some in Latin America or Southeast Asia, the rise has not been nearly as rapid and they tend to get stuck at the middle-income level (and sometimes worse).

Why has the industrialization of East Asia been so much faster and go further than in most other regions of the world? Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, ..., and likely China. Also look at their PISA scores [1] (or other international exams). I believe that one major factor is the emphasis of education in the culture.

If you have other explanations, I'd like to hear.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisa

> The real reason some cultures obsess about education is because there are severe and very real penalties if you fail some exam in middle school.

The penetration of cultural emphasis on education is much deeper and broader than that. It starts almost from birth, and often before, and at all levels of society. Many people there pick partners using strong filters on educational level and institutions attended. High-achieving students are admired, not bullied, for example. The real reasons go back thousands of years. Check out Confucius philosophy and Chinese imperial examinations. [2][3]

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination

> if all you're saying is that poor people who invest long-term will not stay poor, that's almost a tautology.

I said that because you claimed that investing long-term is probably the effect of being well-off.

Note: I agree there are drawbacks to extreme emphasis on education. But it is a good predictor of long-term material successes of a community and a country.

Re: The new, subtle ways the rich signal their wealth

#42

Post by relyio »

wfunction wrote: post #18
relyio wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think calling the article "really stupid" is excessive although I agree it hardly brings anything new to the table. That is fine, but the title had me expecting a little more. As it is I find it a poor re-hash of Pierre Bourdieu's work on cultural capital ("The Inheritors"). I recommend it, it's marvelously well-written in French. Unfortunately, I do not have an English translation to recommend.

How the (English-speaking) rich signal their wealth: by referring to marvelous works in French that have no worthy English translations. :P

Haha, but I am french myself!

Re: The new, subtle ways the rich signal their wealth

#43

Post by pm90 »

general_so_chkn wrote: post #17
not_kurt_godel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what's the alternative? Should people make a conscious decision to be less educated, less healthy, and less prepared for retirement?

There's this very strange and very dangerous notion making the rounds that because some people don't have the means to access something (i.e. a college education) then those that do have the means should abstain out of...what, solidarity? Because it's unfair? Problems of inequality are complex and have many different factors at play. I think it's extremely dangerous to discourage the wealthy from using their wealth i…

Notions of solidarity have been around as long as human civilization existed. Thus you see a lot of cultures where the leaders/elite of their society were discouraged from ostentatious displays of their wealth. And you can see this today as well with a lot of very wealthy people choosing to not exercise their wealth (e.g. Warren Buffett still lives in his old home at Omaha).

Re: The new, subtle ways the rich signal their wealth

#44

Post by pm90 »

anguswithgusto wrote: post #16
TrickyRick wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it really stupid? I thought it was an interesting analysis of consumer behavior

"The new, subtle ways" of signalling wealth in this article are neither new, subtle, nor interesting. You're telling me: -Rich people bragging about going to/sending their kids to nice schools -Eating fancy food -Ostentatiously namedropping highbrow pop culture are some sort of recent phenomena? Come on :)

No, that's not it. The main point of the article has been that the rich, instead of spending outrageous amounts of money on material things, are instead opting for non-material things to spend money on, and to signal their socio-economic status amongst peers. This has traditionally not been the case, where the rich spent a lot of money on fancy cars, houses and such to be as different as possible from other strata of society. Now such ostentatious displays of wealth are no longer sufficient to signal your high socio-economic standing and that is a rather huge change.

Re: The new, subtle ways the rich signal their wealth

#45

Post by pm90 »

general_so_chkn wrote: post #9
TrickyRick wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it really stupid? I thought it was an interesting analysis of consumer behavior

I don't see much analysis, just an assumption that educating yourself through college or reading magazines is an act of "signalling" your wealth. If you have the means to afford these things I think it's rather silly to assume you're doing so to demonstrate how much money you have... There isn't much substance here.

I think there is sufficient analysis for a "news" article. Its not a scientific publication. And the crux seems to be this quote:

> The US Consumer Expenditure Survey data reveals that, since 2007, the country’s top 1% (people earning upwards of $300,000 per year) are spending significantly less on material goods, while middle-income groups (earning approximately $70,000 per year) are spending the same, and their trend is upward.

Re: The new, subtle ways the rich signal their wealth

#46

Post by pm90 »

SwellJoe wrote: post #6
TrickyRick wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it really stupid? I thought it was an interesting analysis of consumer behavior

"Given that everyone can now buy designer handbags and new cars..." That's a pretty stupid assertion.

Taken out of context, of course. But as a sibling mentioned, in the context of middle class being able to afford luxury goods without bankrupting themselves, that statement does make sense.

Re: The new, subtle ways the rich signal their wealth

#47

Post by pm90 »

vilmosi wrote: post #40
nopinsight wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many poor people in developing countries who sacrifice a lot of things and save every bit they can to invest in the education of their children. This phenomenon is very pronounced in China and several countries with Confucius influence. Families with this kind of mindset are unlikely to stay poor for more than 1-2 generations. (This is probably one reason why hundreds of millions in China arose from poverty…

> Families with this kind of mindset are unlikely to stay poor for more than 1-2 generations. (This is probably one reason why hundreds of millions in China arose from poverty to middle-class in a single generation, although I do not see many economists in the West discussing it in the context of China's rise.) What? China's economic boom has little to do with their view on education. They "simply" moved from farmers…

I don't think this is a good reply to what the parent asserted.

> What? China's economic boom has little to do with their view on education.

It most certainly does. You need to be educated to manage all those factories that make everything from toys to factories. You need educated engineers to design and build those factories in the first place. And you need educated people to engage in scientific research in your universities. In other words, a country doesn't simply become economically developed without having a culture of valuing education, and China has definitely been helped by its society's emphasis on getting an education.

> The real reason some cultures obsess about education is because there are severe and very real penalties if you fail some exam in middle school.

This is definitely not true. You can't coerce people to be educated by penalties. The simple fact is that even the poor understand that getting an education is one of the most reliable (and often only) paths to wealth and a better quality of life.

Re: The new, subtle ways the rich signal their wealth

#48

Post by Banthum »

It's interesting reading a pseudo-critique of the "new cultural elite" coming from an author who lives in that elite and an institution that represents that elite globally.

It's like a weird ritualistic self-criticism exercise, to demonstrate goodness and status. Like watching a beauty pageant contestant answer a question about her flaws. Which is part of the virtue signaling that article is about! It's so meta.

And it's nothing like what an outsider to that subculture would write.

---

I'd actually say that getting a useless degree in an intensively political field is one of the more interesting 'new' forms of conspicuous consumption.

Back in the day, people used to get tutored in Latin or Christian theology to have upper-class cred. Now they get gender studies or "whiteness studies" degrees.

In each case the message is the same: I am so wealthy that I can spend all my time doing things that don't economically benefit me at all and are entirely focused on elevating my morality in the dominant activism of our age. It's a sort of ritualistic destruction of your own ability to earn a living, to demonstrate you don't have to earn a living. Like Chinese foot binding.

Re: The new, subtle ways the rich signal their wealth

#50

Post by pm90 »

scandox wrote: post #30

As a non-American and occasional visitor the most obvious class distinction is Teeth. The American middle-class have great looking teeth, bought and paid for. What's funny is they talk about other countries having bad teeth, ignoring the fact that all you have to do is walk into some other neighbourhood and see all the bad teeth you want...

Interesting.. but class distinction b/w middle and upper class or middle and lower class? After you mentioned it though I do agree on this... dental care is incredibly good in the US and covered by insurance so many middle class Americans do have incredibly good looking teeth.
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