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It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

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Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#161

Post by majewsky »

md224 wrote: post #81
adjkant wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your belief in free will comes from "It's going to turn out to come from something really weird"? That's not convincing either. I don't believe in free will, but I believe that there will always be the illusion because the computing needed to know anything before it happens is far too much, and if you knew, it would add another layer of things you'd need to compute, meaning you still wouldn't know your choice ahea…

How is free will not the same as choice? A lack of free will is an inability to exert agency through choosing. Determinism removes the possibility of choosing. If you have no free will, you can't express yourself... nothing you do will be the product of your desires. Weren't you free to choose the words you wrote in your reply?

> A lack of free will is an inability to exert agency through choosing.

Not at all. A computer program can easily do such things as choose items from a list, and thus create the appearance of agency to an outside observer. But that doesn't mean that it exhibits free will.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#162

Post by majewsky »

amasad wrote: post #59
TheCowboy wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could argue that it has been shown that it isn't so black and white, not all decisions are a result of pure free will in all cases. But there has not been some conclusion that there is no free will by "mainstream science" as it is still an open topic. It's also not necessarily contradictory for it to be a bit of both.

Do you agree with the following: - Mainstream science operates on the assumption of physicalism. - Mainstream science operates on the assumption that mind/consciousness is reducible to the brain organ. - Mainstream science operates on the principle of causation. What follows from that is that libertarian free-will is impossible. What you're left with is determinism (and compatibilism which isn't a scientific view, bu…

I'm wondering where science would end up if it operated with the same methods, but started from different underlying assumptions than those that you listed. If it would be able to build unexpected, but nonetheless verifiable theories; or if it would just end up being unable to produce anything useful whatsoever without these axioms.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#163

Post by KGIII »

ux-app wrote: post #119
personomas wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I've been trying to figure out how to live while minimizing the extent of my personal fabricated narrative. > sounds interesting. Do you know of any suggested reading on the topic? The Bible, there's no better. Jesus preaches and teaches truth, truth will erode this false fabricated narrative.

> truth will erode this false fabricated narrative. ooh boy, that's a deep rabbit hole. I'm an atheist now, but I was raised in a deeply religious household (fundamentalist christian, family and entire social circle took the bible very seriously). My experience is that everyone thinks they have the "truth", even though each sect's truth is mutually exclusive from all others (even though they all read from the same bo…

Buddhist saying...

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#164

Post by KGIII »

md224 wrote: post #76
d23 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it kind of amusing that people think free will is an illusion. It's a great illustration of how you can get people to believe anything, including things that violate their most fundamental perceptions. And yet, my own fundamental perceptions say otherwise. If I sit here and try to decide to do something, how do I do it? I kind of... wait. Wait for some idea to pop into my head. Wait for something to appear b…

And yet you still choose. You're trying to dissect your agency, but it's too fundamental to be analyzed like that. It isn't a decision-making process: it is the decision itself. Writing that reply to me required a series of decisions on your part. Do you feel like your words are under your control? Communication requires choice... if we have no free will, then we're mute prisoners. I'm pretty sure I'm not a mute pris…

Without free will, we wouldn't be accountable for our choices.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#165

Post by lmm »

majewsky wrote: post #160
adjkant wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your belief in free will comes from "It's going to turn out to come from something really weird"? That's not convincing either. I don't believe in free will, but I believe that there will always be the illusion because the computing needed to know anything before it happens is far too much, and if you knew, it would add another layer of things you'd need to compute, meaning you still wouldn't know your choice ahea…

> I don't believe in free will, but I believe that there will always be the illusion because the computing needed to know anything before it happens is far too much, and if you knew, it would add another layer of things you'd need to compute, meaning you still wouldn't know your choice ahead of time. Interesting. I arrived at the same conclusion for myself, but used it as justification that I, basically, "might as we…

How would you tell? If you didn't have free will, what would you expect that to feel like?

(I don't think free will is even a coherent concept, much less something that anyone has)

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#166

Post by vinutheraj »

real-hacker wrote: post #144

Maybe the core of so-called 'free will' or 'soul' is just a random-number generator. Other than that, we are just many layers of deep neural networks.

Then the question becomes: can there be a really random number generator ?

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#167

Post by nf05papsjfVbc »

nvarsj wrote: post #154
sharkweek wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mindfulness, despite the recent buzzword-iness of it, has been an amazing tool for me. When I'm feeling any number of negative emotions (anger, anxiety, stress, etc.), or when my OCD flares up, it helps so much to simply pause, turn and face the emotion, address it, and say to myself "I am feeling this way because..." and calling out the trigger. It almost takes the teeth out of the negative feeling, making it pass a…

Sounds like CBT! Other things I've found that help is more sleep, and less caffeine. It's not talked about much, but I'm convinced caffeine exacerbates the kind of negative emotions and anxiety that affect us perfectionists. I don't quite have the willpower to give it up, though.

I can not give up good coffee as long as I have access to good roasters and an espresso machine.

However, I will freely concede that caffeine does indeed seem to heighten feelings of anxiety. On days when something unpleasant is on my mind, it makes it worse.

On the other hand, it helps me start the day by doing something for myself - making good coffee. I enjoy the process and at the moment, making bad days worse is a price I gladly pay for it.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#168

Post by pksadiq »

md224 wrote: post #81
adjkant wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your belief in free will comes from "It's going to turn out to come from something really weird"? That's not convincing either. I don't believe in free will, but I believe that there will always be the illusion because the computing needed to know anything before it happens is far too much, and if you knew, it would add another layer of things you'd need to compute, meaning you still wouldn't know your choice ahea…

How is free will not the same as choice? A lack of free will is an inability to exert agency through choosing. Determinism removes the possibility of choosing. If you have no free will, you can't express yourself... nothing you do will be the product of your desires. Weren't you free to choose the words you wrote in your reply?

> Weren't you free to choose the words you wrote in your reply?

I was thinking the same. If we have no free will, what made us think that we don't have free will? Because we don't have free will, the thought on "not having free will" should probably the outcome of the past actions, which we didn't have choice on that either. Is it inevitable for many people to think so? Why not the rest?

So, do we really don't have free will?

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#169

Post by nf05papsjfVbc »

dwaltrip wrote: post #74
adjkant wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your belief in free will comes from "It's going to turn out to come from something really weird"? That's not convincing either. I don't believe in free will, but I believe that there will always be the illusion because the computing needed to know anything before it happens is far too much, and if you knew, it would add another layer of things you'd need to compute, meaning you still wouldn't know your choice ahea…

> More importantly, you highlight something else - choice is not the same as free will. Yes, we all have choices we make every day. They seem to be our will because we don't understand how they were made down to the particles. Whether or not there is free will, there is always choice. So the question is, when is the lack of free will actually relevant? Great point. This should be brought up more often. Many discussio…

I haven't studied the subject but on the odd day, it'd pique my curiosity. I've thought on these lines earlier but eventually I'd end it with "but the very act of choosing to make a choice" is in itself governed by the presence/absence of free-will. I have to admit I've not made progress from that point (neither have I made efforts to break through that barrier).

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#170

Post by J-dawg »

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the analogy to taking away an epileptic's driving licence.

People who regularly suffer epileptic seizures are not allowed to drive, for example, but we don’t think of this ban as “punishing” them for their affliction.

“We’ve successfully banished the notion of punishment in that realm. It may take centuries, but we can do the same in all our current arenas of punishment.”

I've long thought that one of the cruelest things about our justice system is that it barely takes into account the terrible circumstances that someone might have been through before they become a criminal.

Is the epileptic analogy really the right one, though? By that analogy, we would pre-emptively remove freedoms from people who've had a bad upbringing, or a genetic predisposition to violence. That sounds like precrime, and a very dangerous road to go down.

I would love to see a more compassionate and rehabilitation-based justice system, but I really don't think he has chosen the right analogy.

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