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It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

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Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#91

Post by [deleted] »

justinpombrio wrote: post #82
amasad wrote: post #38

The schism between our science and politics is finally getting airtime. Liberal western politics are based on individual liberty and free will. However, mainstream science maintains that we're neither individuals nor have free will. Do we try to reconcile both views? Or do we drop one in favor of the other? This, by the way, is also the subject of Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow, by the same author behind Sapi…

> However, mainstream science maintains that we're neither individuals nor have free will. What is your definition of free will such that mainstream science says that we do not have it? In general, I'd recommend always stating your definition of free will when discussing it, because people's definitions differ. Given that definition, how would the world look if we did have it, and if we didn't? (You are part of the w…

[deleted]

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#92

Post by skookumchuck »

techbio wrote: post #60
elihu wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we assume that free will doesn't exist (which I don't agree with, but for the sake of argument we'll assume it doesn't), one might still expect people to make choices that maximize their own well-being and it isn't too much of a stretch to suppose that such choices are more often than not good for society, or at least more so than a planned society where most choices are made for you by some authority. One can arg…

Optimism and Hume notwithstanding the outcomes regarding prosperity and stability may be bestowed upon the society as a whole without the choices by individuals having individually assisted their own life outcomes.

Societies where the choices are made by the government, not the individuals, have not bestowed prosperity and stability on the whole.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#93

Post by acover »

ak4g wrote: post #80
77pt77 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you're left with is determinism Not true even at a fundamental level. Why should it be true at a macro/aggregate one?

Can you clarify what you mean? How are we not left with determinism at a fundamental level? (And if it starts with a Q, then at most one can say is that it's possible that it's not deterministic. It's perfectly compatible with determinism, just not (AIUI) (and IANATP) currently known whether or not it is the case.)

Quantum mechanics?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism#Modern_scientific_...

Edit: why downvote this?

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#94

Post by kleer001 »

ux-app wrote: post #85
dwaltrip wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is living in fairytale narratives that we spend decades crafting for ourselves. And doing so has some great benefits! But it is also can be very problematic at times. I've been trying to figure out how to live while minimizing the extent of my personal fabricated narrative. It's a bit tricky... As with many things, I think basic awareness of the phenomenon is the first productive step.

>I've been trying to figure out how to live while minimizing the extent of my personal fabricated narrative. sounds interesting. Do you know of any suggested reading on the topic?

5 dried grams of magic mushrooms. Or listen to 40+ hours of lectures from Alan Watts.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#95

Post by ingenuous2 »

ux-app wrote: post #85
dwaltrip wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is living in fairytale narratives that we spend decades crafting for ourselves. And doing so has some great benefits! But it is also can be very problematic at times. I've been trying to figure out how to live while minimizing the extent of my personal fabricated narrative. It's a bit tricky... As with many things, I think basic awareness of the phenomenon is the first productive step.

>I've been trying to figure out how to live while minimizing the extent of my personal fabricated narrative. sounds interesting. Do you know of any suggested reading on the topic?

Over the last couple years, I've been exploring this. I can't provide any answers, but I've found all the usual recommendations useful. CBT, Watts, Stoicism, yoga, mindfulness.

Of those, the last -- mindfulness -- has been the most crucial.

I cannot usually control my reaction to stimulus, but the hardest part for me (and in others, now that I observe them) is the identification of the event trigger.

Once you identify what causes things to happen[0], it's much much much easier to adjust the behavior. The event notifier pattern has been most useful for me.

[0] after all, it's kind of ridiculous that a bad incident in traffic will affect my interaction with a colleague.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#96

Post by tacomonstrous »

amasad wrote: post #59
TheCowboy wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could argue that it has been shown that it isn't so black and white, not all decisions are a result of pure free will in all cases. But there has not been some conclusion that there is no free will by "mainstream science" as it is still an open topic. It's also not necessarily contradictory for it to be a bit of both.

Do you agree with the following: - Mainstream science operates on the assumption of physicalism. - Mainstream science operates on the assumption that mind/consciousness is reducible to the brain organ. - Mainstream science operates on the principle of causation. What follows from that is that libertarian free-will is impossible. What you're left with is determinism (and compatibilism which isn't a scientific view, bu…

None of your postulates are accurate or well-defined.

--I don't know what 'physicalism' means.

--Mainstream science doesn't even claim to know what consciousness is, let alone what it can be reduced to.

--Science does not operate on the principle of causation. The point is to make falsifiable predictions that can, when verified, be considered as evidence that your hypothesis for how things work might just be how they work.

There is just so much we don't know. Using science to justify some new-agey claptrap about determinism is just malfeasance.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#97

Post by lxmorj »

kleer001 wrote: post #94
ux-app wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've been trying to figure out how to live while minimizing the extent of my personal fabricated narrative. sounds interesting. Do you know of any suggested reading on the topic?

5 dried grams of magic mushrooms. Or listen to 40+ hours of lectures from Alan Watts.

5??????

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#98

Post by [deleted] »

felipeko wrote: post #41
robotresearcher wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The richest country in the world has been at war overseas almost constantly since the end of WWII.

And it went to war for the following reasons: a) scarcity of resource (oil) / humanitarian reasons (whichever you prefer to believe) b) was provoked into it (because of cold war or terrorists)

[deleted]

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#99

Post by [deleted] »

felipeko wrote: post #41
robotresearcher wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The richest country in the world has been at war overseas almost constantly since the end of WWII.

And it went to war for the following reasons: a) scarcity of resource (oil) / humanitarian reasons (whichever you prefer to believe) b) was provoked into it (because of cold war or terrorists)

[deleted]

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#100

Post by taneq »

amasad wrote: post #59
TheCowboy wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could argue that it has been shown that it isn't so black and white, not all decisions are a result of pure free will in all cases. But there has not been some conclusion that there is no free will by "mainstream science" as it is still an open topic. It's also not necessarily contradictory for it to be a bit of both.

Do you agree with the following: - Mainstream science operates on the assumption of physicalism. - Mainstream science operates on the assumption that mind/consciousness is reducible to the brain organ. - Mainstream science operates on the principle of causation. What follows from that is that libertarian free-will is impossible. What you're left with is determinism (and compatibilism which isn't a scientific view, bu…

If we had free will we'd choose not to get into big online discussions about whether or not we have free will, without first defining what we meant by free will...
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