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A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

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Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#91

Post by djb_hackernews »

Banthum wrote: post #50
bmpafa wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a critical point, thanks for making it. The mythology that all failure is a function of bad work ethic, etc., is a huge barrier to meaningful progress on poverty alleviation. Anyone interested in reading more on this topic, I rec. this book. It's about people who are near-homeless, not fully homeless, but it's one of the best things I've read on the topic. The author lived with the subjects for several years…

I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not com…

If we accept your "unreliable worker" theory, have you considered that there are outside factors besides a lack of "work ethic" (which is some real quality bs to begin with) that would make a person unreliable? If you have, what were they and why were they ruled out?

I find that people that make the work ethic argument are the ones that don't want to acknowledge that they didn't exactly earn their place. They think they rose to their position purely by their own work ethic and that makes them intrinsically special and possessing traits that others are deficient in.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#92

Post by Mz »

Banthum wrote: post #71
mjevans wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be interesting if social research looked in to /why/ that was the case. Is there some ongoing problem disrupting these people's lives? Other family or social obligations that interfere with the hours the employer desires? Maybe a different shift (working hours during the day/night) would be better aligned with their biorhythms; it might require placement in a different job. I for one, know that I don't funct…

I'm sure there are extenuating circumstances in many cases, yes. Why is it so unacceptable to think that they are simply humans, like you and me, with agency and power over their own choices, with responsibility for the outcomes of their choices, who are simply choosing to do a thing that you and I believe to be a really bad choices? A pattern of such choices is labeled "bad work ethic" but at the end of the day, bad…

bad work ethic is just a long series of individual choices to do something besides working.

http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-wrong-me...

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#93

Post by oh_sigh »

glogla wrote: post #9
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think personal change represents any elevation from poverty? I think we certainly agree it can play a major role into poverty descent.

Not really, no. In the US, it's mostly about your family, although there are exceptions of course: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the... > The correlation between parents' income and their children's income in the United States is estimated between .4 and .6. > If a parent's income had no effect on a child's opportunity for future upward mobility, approximately 20% of poor children who start…

That is a correlation, not causal. Maybe (just throwing something out there) poor parent's children continue to be poor because the poor parents can't teach their children the appropriate life skills to save and earn enough money?

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#94

Post by peterwwillis »

Mz wrote: post #90
peterwwillis wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you should have been downvoted because you appear to be trying to find out why this person doesn't have a home. I am not the poster, but here's an example of a plausible answer. (Apologies for the lengthy post) You have $50K in collections debt, no insurance, no credit, no bank. Any money you have, you carry with you. Getting paid is a pain in the ass, because even though you could conceivably receive m…

That's a decent picture of how complicated it can be, though not entirely accurate. For example, some homeless people do have cars and sleep in them. (I do not, but some do.) Being homeless does not necessarily mean being carless. I actually spend several hours a day at a library with wonderful and supportive staff who do not hassle me. I do resume work online( http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/ ) and I work fo…

You're right, it's certainly not the same for everyone. I intentionally left out other obstacles like physical and mental health problems, drug/alcohol dependence, gender/ethnicity stereotype, communication barriers, legal status, being a parent, physical/sexual abuse, etc.

Having a car can be a huge benefit (after you pay for the mandatory registration and insurance and gas), until it gets stolen or robbed (which happened to my friend six months ago and she's still trying to work her way back to a replacement vehicle). And another friend, now that I think of it... And another, heh. Assuming it wasn't totaled, the fee to get the stolen car out of impound, plus a fee for every day it sits in the yard, on top of the repairs for bullet holes, smashed in windows, etc can make it more feasible to just save to buy another used car.

I think another thing that isn't stressed enough is how homelessness can drag on your mental health. You have constant stress, and dealing with obstacles and unfairness on a daily basis can feed depression, make you more irritable, lose energy, etc. Not being "chipper" enough can be a big burden in terms of getting clients (especially for women; thanks, male chauvinism). I am of course not trying to tell you this, but for other readers to consider.

Thank you for telling your story, I hope your situation improves soon. Have you considered applying to a TED talk on bias or invisible burdens for people with lack of resource security?

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#95

Post by Mz »

peterwwillis wrote: post #94
Mz wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a decent picture of how complicated it can be, though not entirely accurate. For example, some homeless people do have cars and sleep in them. (I do not, but some do.) Being homeless does not necessarily mean being carless. I actually spend several hours a day at a library with wonderful and supportive staff who do not hassle me. I do resume work online( http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/ ) and I work fo…

You're right, it's certainly not the same for everyone. I intentionally left out other obstacles like physical and mental health problems, drug/alcohol dependence, gender/ethnicity stereotype, communication barriers, legal status, being a parent, physical/sexual abuse, etc. Having a car can be a huge benefit (after you pay for the mandatory registration and insurance and gas), until it gets stolen or robbed (which ha…

I am in no position to do a TED talk. I do a lot of blogging (I have multiple blogs) and I participate on various forums and I started a Reddit a couple of months back called Housing Works because the shortage of affordable housing is such a huge part of this and getting worse. I run a blog called the San Diego Homeless Survival Guide. Because of that blog, I have been interviewed 3x times by various reporters and that has never resulted in media attention for the site, probably because the first two asked why I was homeless and I talked about my medical situation, which always gets me dismissed as a lunatic. The third incident was recent and not an interview per se. Perhaps it shall get mentioned in their article, but I am not holding my breathe.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#96

Post by anigbrowl »

chillacy wrote: post #55
Banthum wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not com…

It's a shame this is getting downvoted because it's not really inflammatory or even untrue. I think it's fair to say that this topic is complex enough that both this comment and the parent comment are true (which is that poverty is a function of both factors that can be controlled and factors that cannot be controlled).

Correct, but it's an unhelpful distraction from the more difficult structural problem. It's like having some hippie come along with a lecture about aligning your chakras and so on - there's a worthwhile spiritual philosophy underneath all the buzzwords, and a sincere intention to be helpful and motivating, but if you're not already in that meditative frame of mind then it's both unhelpful and annoying.

Talking about work ethic is valuable after other existential and economic anxieties have been alleviated and a person is in a position to make choices - not just select from expiring alternatives - about what sort of life style and goals they wish to pursue. Offered without regard to the situations that marginalized people find themselves in, it's mere pablum.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#97

Post by anigbrowl »

Banthum wrote: post #80
dwaltrip wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just had a thought that much of the difficulty lies in the murky zone between the following views: 1) "This person is struggling, and part of the problem is their work ethic and poor executive functioning." and 2) "This is a moral failing and thus we can't help them too much, as they will take advantage of it." I think some people automatically associate the second idea with people who express the first, when in re…

Eh, more like: 3) "This person is struggling, we can't help them in ways that are too paternalistic or agency-denying, because that will ultimately just end up harming them". E.g. You wouldn't tell your child that his economic outcomes are completely unconnected to his own choices or work ethic. If a kid has trouble at a task, we don't just tell them that the task is stacked against them and that they can do nothing…

You wouldn't tell your child that, but nor would you toss them out on the street if they were having difficulty absorbing the lessons because as a parent you're responsible for their well-being and you have a duty (social/cultural rather than legal, but still) to create the conditions within which they can thrive.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#98

Post by jdietrich »

Retric wrote: post #88
rayiner wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Is there a morally relevant distinction between mental illness and bad work ethic? There is a lot of research to suggest that things we associate with "bad work ethic" ( e.g. lack of impulse control) appear extremely early in childhood development and aren't things people necessarily have much control over. We need to stop moralizing things that people hav…

Lead poisoning and 'bad work ethic/poor impulse control' can look very similar. However, poor work ethic as a mental shortcut plays into the just world viewpoint. Where lead poisoning contradicts it which is IMO why so many people think in terms of work ethic.

>Lead poisoning and 'bad work ethic/poor impulse control' can look very similar.

As can the effects of traumatic brain injury and chronic abuse or neglect.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#99

Post by placeybordeaux »

jameskegel wrote: post #63
Mz wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that I am the highest ranked woman on Hacker News, I think you are clearly in error. Historically, women have not been warmly welcomed here and not taken as seriously as the men. And if you can't admit your gender for fear of discrimination, that closes doors in terms of business. The men are never advised to hide their gender. Yet people seem to think that's an actual solution for a woman. I can't fathom how o…

Your response has given me greater perspective to your situation, bless your heart.

> bless your heart

Did you mean this in good faith? Where I was raised throwing that in is fairly insulting.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#100

Post by zem »

Mz wrote: post #36
zem wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, seriously. happy for him, but fuck the whole "instead of begging" narrative :(

Um, no, let's not fuck that. The way to help people get off the street is to help them access paid work instead of begging and instead of charity. Charity does not buy one a middle class lifestyle. You get that by working for it. Why is this so very hard for so many people to comprehend?

i believe the narrative that everyone has to work for a living, and that the way to help everyone obtain the basic necessities of life is to somehow create jobs for them, is an increasingly dangerous fallacy. there is simply less and less need for everyone to be working in order to produce enough to support everyone, and the ideal producer/consumer ratio is only falling with every increase in automation.

if we weren't trying to cling so desperately to this sort of capitalist setup, we'd all be better off. it's just that the incentives for it aren't yet aligned with the immediate interests of whoever has the power to make changes.

as someone working and leading a middle class lifestyle, i'd be even happier, and feel a lot more productive, if i thought my work was helping other people lead the same lifestyle sans working (or even better, by working on whatever they felt like, without having to care about whether someone valued it enough to pay for it).

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