Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

one.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 193 posts

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#61

Post by [deleted] »

jameskegel wrote: post #57
Mz wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I work, I often make more than $20/hour. Not always, but often. But I am not always able to put in the hours, due in part to my health problems and in part to logistical issues from being homeless. I also have trouble promoting myself, in part because I am homeless so people online don't take me seriously, but in part because I am a woman, so a lot of people didn't want to take me seriously even when I had an ap…

Gender and home situation are two things not conveyed over the internet; I don't think this stigma is legitimately a risk. The fact is you're propagating that information, which is a choice.

[deleted]

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#62

Post by LMYahooTFY »

Banthum wrote: post #50
bmpafa wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a critical point, thanks for making it. The mythology that all failure is a function of bad work ethic, etc., is a huge barrier to meaningful progress on poverty alleviation. Anyone interested in reading more on this topic, I rec. this book. It's about people who are near-homeless, not fully homeless, but it's one of the best things I've read on the topic. The author lived with the subjects for several years…

I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not com…

>I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc.

I'd be interested in more quantified data in this point, as I know many people who hold this as a foundational principle in their life.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#63

Post by jameskegel »

Mz wrote: post #59
jameskegel wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender and home situation are two things not conveyed over the internet; I don't think this stigma is legitimately a risk. The fact is you're propagating that information, which is a choice.

Given that I am the highest ranked woman on Hacker News, I think you are clearly in error. Historically, women have not been warmly welcomed here and not taken as seriously as the men. And if you can't admit your gender for fear of discrimination, that closes doors in terms of business. The men are never advised to hide their gender. Yet people seem to think that's an actual solution for a woman. I can't fathom how o…

Your response has given me greater perspective to your situation, bless your heart.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#64

Post by dwaltrip »

chillacy wrote: post #55
Banthum wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not com…

It's a shame this is getting downvoted because it's not really inflammatory or even untrue. I think it's fair to say that this topic is complex enough that both this comment and the parent comment are true (which is that poverty is a function of both factors that can be controlled and factors that cannot be controlled).

I just had a thought that much of the difficulty lies in the murky zone between the following views:

1) "This person is struggling, and part of the problem is their work ethic and poor executive functioning."

and

2) "This is a moral failing and thus we can't help them too much, as they will take advantage of it."

I think some people automatically associate the second idea with people who express the first, when in reality they don't have to be tightly coupled. I personally think that (1) is a legitimate dynamic in some cases (I have no idea the exact extent).

On the other hand, (2), while touching on a worthwhile consideration (any help given should be effective, etc), frames things in an inflammatory and unproductive way, and on the net implies an inaccurate and harmful overly pessimistic sentiment.

Another huge reason for the trickiness is that the concept of "work ethic" is fairly nebulous and complex. For example, sometimes people can have a huge change in work ethic with a small change in perspective (of course, perspective changes are difficult in and of themselves) or environment.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#65

Post by rayiner »

Banthum wrote: post #50
bmpafa wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a critical point, thanks for making it. The mythology that all failure is a function of bad work ethic, etc., is a huge barrier to meaningful progress on poverty alleviation. Anyone interested in reading more on this topic, I rec. this book. It's about people who are near-homeless, not fully homeless, but it's one of the best things I've read on the topic. The author lived with the subjects for several years…

I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not com…

> But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic.

Is there a morally relevant distinction between mental illness and bad work ethic? There is a lot of research to suggest that things we associate with "bad work ethic" (e.g. lack of impulse control) appear extremely early in childhood development and aren't things people necessarily have much control over.

We need to stop moralizing things that people have no control over. We've realized this in a limited way--it is no longer acceptable to make fun of people with intellectual disabilities (IQ There is a kernel of something I agree with in your post, though: social structures can add a lot of value in helping people who might not be that bright or might have problems with impulse control to lead productive lives. That's a major shortcoming of our current approaches to fighting poverty, which emphasize individualism.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#66

Post by plink »

Banthum wrote: post #50
bmpafa wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a critical point, thanks for making it. The mythology that all failure is a function of bad work ethic, etc., is a huge barrier to meaningful progress on poverty alleviation. Anyone interested in reading more on this topic, I rec. this book. It's about people who are near-homeless, not fully homeless, but it's one of the best things I've read on the topic. The author lived with the subjects for several years…

I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not com…

So, there is an entire class of people identifiable by their poor work ethic? Your fourth paragraph makes a stab at Randian logic, but without her grammatical clarity.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#67

Post by mtdewcmu »

tryitnow wrote: post #17

This is a great story. But...someone who has the intelligence and work ethic to do this probably wasn't going to be homeless for long. Honestly, there are probably millions of people who pull themselves together like this - it's just they end up working regular jobs like maintenance work or burger flipping that aren't as inspirational. The problem with stories like this is they conflate two problems: (1) being down o…

Agree. I think of group (1) as the "accidentally homeless." Group (2) is homeless secondary to some other insidious problem and they will remain homeless unless the primary problem is dealt with. Group (1) are a source of feel-good stories. But group (2) are the ones that really need help, and that help might be inconveniently expensive. It's easier and cheaper to pretend that group (2) doesn't exist.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#68

Post by gnaritas »

Banthum wrote: post #50
bmpafa wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a critical point, thanks for making it. The mythology that all failure is a function of bad work ethic, etc., is a huge barrier to meaningful progress on poverty alleviation. Anyone interested in reading more on this topic, I rec. this book. It's about people who are near-homeless, not fully homeless, but it's one of the best things I've read on the topic. The author lived with the subjects for several years…

I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not com…

> But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic.

Such thinking is the problem, it's juvenile, simplistic, and wrong.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#69

Post by enraged_camel »

Banthum wrote: post #50
bmpafa wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a critical point, thanks for making it. The mythology that all failure is a function of bad work ethic, etc., is a huge barrier to meaningful progress on poverty alleviation. Anyone interested in reading more on this topic, I rec. this book. It's about people who are near-homeless, not fully homeless, but it's one of the best things I've read on the topic. The author lived with the subjects for several years…

I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not com…

>>But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic.

What proportion exactly? How do you know it's "huge"?

I mean, what you describe definitely happens to some extent, but I'm curious as to how you reached the conclusion that it's really common.

Because I have counter-anecdotes. The most common scenario I personally witness is that an unemployed person finally lands a job, and they work their asses off to make sure they don't lose it. They arrive early, leave late and generally jump at every opportunity to prove their worth.

So I'm very skeptical that poor work ethic is a significant root cause of poverty. Of course, if you have actual numbers, I would be interested to read more.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#70

Post by [deleted] »

Banthum wrote: post #50
bmpafa wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a critical point, thanks for making it. The mythology that all failure is a function of bad work ethic, etc., is a huge barrier to meaningful progress on poverty alleviation. Anyone interested in reading more on this topic, I rec. this book. It's about people who are near-homeless, not fully homeless, but it's one of the best things I've read on the topic. The author lived with the subjects for several years…

I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not com…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN