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BasicAttentionToken Roadmap 1.0

basicattentiontoken.org

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Re: BasicAttentionToken Roadmap 1.0

#51

Post by Jabanga »

hudon wrote: post #50
Jabanga wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A blockchain platform can be designed to not give the developer direct control over things like pricing, or anything at all. I don't know if that is what Brave is planning with its ad platform mind you, but it's certainly possible, and would be a differentiator only possible by building on top of a distributed ledger. A good example would be the blockchain itself, where every cost users incur, like transaction fees,…

> A blockchain platform can be designed to not give the developer direct control over things like pricing, or anything at all The developers don't control the price... It's a market between brave/publishers/users. Are you saying Google's engineers would be able to affect the price? That possibility has no affect on the product's success. That's like saying Amazon engineers can go and change the price of items so we s…

>That's like saying Amazon engineers can go and change the price of items so we should replace Amazon with a blockchain.

Not Amazon engineers, but Amazon itself could raise fees if it attains a comfortable de facto monopoly.

Re: BasicAttentionToken Roadmap 1.0

#52

Post by sneak »

jazoom wrote: post #48
sneak wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tweeting harmless gifs is not harassment.

Anything can be harassment if it's unwelcome, and you are certainly aware that your pestering is unwelcome. He keeps blocking you and you keep creating fake accounts. In what world is that not harassment?

Excuse me? I've never created any fake accounts. Your accusations are baseless.

By your logic, your replies are harassment; you are condemning precisely what you are currently engaging in.

Disagreement on the internet is not harassment. I am free to mention the username of anyone I like in my tweets of gifs of boys kissing.

Re: BasicAttentionToken Roadmap 1.0

#53

Post by hudon »

Jabanga wrote: post #51
hudon wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A blockchain platform can be designed to not give the developer direct control over things like pricing, or anything at all The developers don't control the price... It's a market between brave/publishers/users. Are you saying Google's engineers would be able to affect the price? That possibility has no affect on the product's success. That's like saying Amazon engineers can go and change the price of items so we s…

>That's like saying Amazon engineers can go and change the price of items so we should replace Amazon with a blockchain. Not Amazon engineers, but Amazon itself could raise fees if it attains a comfortable de facto monopoly.

If it does than, then it can get out-competed by Rainforest, which is a clone of Amazon but with lower fees. Then if Sahara comes along and copies Rainforest but uses the blockchain for payments, they won't be able to compete because they will have to pay for blockchain network transaction fees and potential blockchain network backlog (unreliable payments compared to say funding a Google Wallet or some such)

Re: BasicAttentionToken Roadmap 1.0

#54

Post by jazoom »

sneak wrote: post #52
jazoom wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything can be harassment if it's unwelcome, and you are certainly aware that your pestering is unwelcome. He keeps blocking you and you keep creating fake accounts. In what world is that not harassment?

Excuse me? I've never created any fake accounts. Your accusations are baseless. By your logic, your replies are harassment; you are condemning precisely what you are currently engaging in. Disagreement on the internet is not harassment. I am free to mention the username of anyone I like in my tweets of gifs of boys kissing.

Apparently I misunderstood why he would need to "re-block" you.

Re: BasicAttentionToken Roadmap 1.0

#55

Post by Jabanga »

hudon wrote: post #53
Jabanga wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's like saying Amazon engineers can go and change the price of items so we should replace Amazon with a blockchain. Not Amazon engineers, but Amazon itself could raise fees if it attains a comfortable de facto monopoly.

If it does than, then it can get out-competed by Rainforest, which is a clone of Amazon but with lower fees. Then if Sahara comes along and copies Rainforest but uses the blockchain for payments, they won't be able to compete because they will have to pay for blockchain network transaction fees and potential blockchain network backlog (unreliable payments compared to say funding a Google Wallet or some such)

That depends on whether the market leader benefits from network effects. All other things being equal, the market leader in a naturally monopolistic industry, like say social networks, has a much more compelling product than competitors. That allows the market leader to extract monopoly rent.

Re: BasicAttentionToken Roadmap 1.0

#56

Post by jasonkostempski »

Spivak wrote: post #11
kgwxd wrote: post #5

Who would run a browser specifically designed to track and show ads? I can't imagine it ever being enough to support the ecosystem. Edit: And how is the locally gathered "attention" monitoring not exploitable by the people who get paid for the attention? Running a bunch of VMs that "pay attention" to the ad seems like a cheap thing to rig up.

> Who would run a browser specifically designed to track and show ads? Yeah, I don't understand Chrome users either. > Edit: People already do this with mixed success. There's also nothing stopping you from modifying the browser falsely report that the user actually viewed the ads.

Chrome at least isn't promoted as a great way to be tracked and get ads, they hide their shame like a proper company :) I know fake views are already a thing but it seems like a big issue to leave unsolved and if it's the only vulnerability, efforts on that particular kind of "fraud" will double down. Any model that gives the users machine a key role, isn't going to work long term, it'll eventually be the same ol' cat-and-mouse/race-to-the-bottom games of yore. Advertisers and content creators need to get back to basics, work together and leave the end users machines out of it. I know that doesn't work well for the little guy with a blog, they'll just have to work harder to earn their buck, like they always should have.

Re: BasicAttentionToken Roadmap 1.0

#57

Post by BrendanEich »

kgwxd wrote: post #5

Who would run a browser specifically designed to track and show ads? I can't imagine it ever being enough to support the ecosystem. Edit: And how is the locally gathered "attention" monitoring not exploitable by the people who get paid for the attention? Running a bunch of VMs that "pay attention" to the ad seems like a cheap thing to rig up.

Brave blocks ads and trackers by default, period.

Ads will be opt-in and use a separate open source coomponent.

Anonymous donations (prototyped with bitcoin already, see Payments panel in Preferences/Settings) are opt-in too and they will remain bundled by of course off by default. With user-private ad slots, we expect users will auto-donate their monthly revenue to their top sites.

Re: BasicAttentionToken Roadmap 1.0

#58

Post by lukemulks »

al_chemist wrote: post #31

> BAT Gemini (fall 2017/winter 2018) > KYC (humint + machine learning), rate, and flow control for anti-fraud Brave - first browser that not only force you to pay for browsing Internet, but also force you to do it with your identity proven. Privacy nightmare.

Brave is not forcing anyone to pay for anything (I work at Brave and on the BAT project).

Brave is, and will be free to use.

BAT will be opt-in, and users will not be required to pay for anything.

Users that opt-in when BAT ads become integrated will be awarded BAT from the user growth pool (user growth pool is 300m BATs).

Users that opt-in and wish to remain anonymous do not have to KYC.

Users that choose to exchange BATs for fiat or remove BAT from the system will have to go through KYC if they setup a new wallet as a part of the opt-in.

Again, Brave is not forcing anyone to pay to browse. Brave will continue to block ads and tracking by default, for free. BAT will be integrated and opt-in.

BAT FAQ: https://basicattentiontoken.org/faq.html

BAT blog: User adoption and extending the BAT Platform https://basicattentiontoken.org/driving-user-adoption-and-ex...

BAT white paper: https://basicattentiontoken.org/BasicAttentionTokenWhitePape...

Re: BasicAttentionToken Roadmap 1.0

#59

Post by lukemulks »

Jabanga wrote: post #9
Animats wrote: post #7

The usual trouble with micropayments applies - all the interest is from people who want to collect micropayments, not those who want to pay them.

Isn't the end-user the party collecting micropayments in this case?

There are a few pieces to this (I work at Brave and am on the BAT project).

The BAT project has set aside 300M BATs in the User Growth Pool, which will be used to award users that opt-in to the BAT integration with BATs.

Amounts in the user growth pool, including the address, are listed in the BAT FAQ: https://basicattentiontoken.org/faq.html

We also released a post on the user growth pool and extending the BAT Platform beyond the Brave browser, which is continued in the roadmap: https://basicattentiontoken.org/driving-user-adoption-and-ex...

The existing Brave Payments beta that uses bitcoin will be migrated to BAT as the roadmap indicates (https://basicattentiontoken.org/bat-roadmap-1-0.html), which will initiate flow for users that choose to opt-in and contribute to verified publishers.

We've posted about this here: https://basicattentiontoken.org/bat-a-natural-way-to-contrib...

The post above also contains a review of the Google Contributor reboot, which filters ads in exchange for micropayments for participating publishers.

As communicated in the roadmap, trials will initially be with ads in private user channels (separate from the current blanner blindness problems that exist - I worked in ad ops and product integration for 5 years prior to joining Brave last Dec - blanner blindness is a problem). Examples: rich push notifications, private tabs, new tab page.

In later phases, verified publishers will be included in the rev share, with additional options for premium content and ala carte content available for BAT for publishers interested in the utility.

That said, verified publishers will be included earlier in the process through the microdonation/patreon option mentioned above.

Re: BasicAttentionToken Roadmap 1.0

#60

Post by jasonkostempski »

BrendanEich wrote: post #57
kgwxd wrote: post #5

Who would run a browser specifically designed to track and show ads? I can't imagine it ever being enough to support the ecosystem. Edit: And how is the locally gathered "attention" monitoring not exploitable by the people who get paid for the attention? Running a bunch of VMs that "pay attention" to the ad seems like a cheap thing to rig up.

Brave blocks ads and trackers by default, period. Ads will be opt-in and use a separate open source coomponent. Anonymous donations (prototyped with bitcoin already, see Payments panel in Preferences/Settings) are opt-in too and they will remain bundled by of course off by default. With user-private ad slots, we expect users will auto-donate their monthly revenue to their top sites.

That's the definitive answer I was looking for. After I read slewis' comment, I took another look and I still couldn't tell if that was truly the case just from the information on the website. The site text is "...privacy-focused browser that blocks malvertisements, trackers..." but I took that to mean it blocks ads/trackers that aren't part of the Brave+BAT system; and "Users, who opt in, receive fewer but better targeted ads..." I took to mean users to who opt in to using Brave. If I was still on iPhone, I would definitely try it based on slewis' recommendation but I'm getting by really well with IceCat and uBlock Origin on Android. Obviously, that isn't any good for content creators.

My biggest beef with ads is the tracking and Brave seem to have a really nice solution to that. I think a lot of people will like it. Personally, I don't want my machine involved in any of the logistics of getting ads presented to me. I think ads should embedded directly in the content and whatever content providers and advertisers need to do to keep each other honest should be their concern, never the users. That's all they ever should have been allowed to do. Just because they've been able to track users in a creepy kind of way for the past decade or two, doesn't mean it's a good path forward, at least for users. Keeping it local is the least creepy solution, but only if no tracking is not an option and, at least for now, it is.

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