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If companies interviewed tech recruiters the way they interview programmers

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Re: If companies interviewed tech recruiters the way they interview programmers

#81

Post by cr0sh »

dagw wrote: post #54
ryandrake wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Further, when I hire someone to fix my roof, I don't make him build me a doghouse first to scrutinize whether he's any good. On the other hand, if you don't ask at least some basic questions, you risk hiring the Brillant Paula Bean [1]. 1: http://thedailywtf.com/articles/The_Brillant_Paula_Bean

I kind of wish I'd gotten the people I hired to build our terrace to first build something small, like a doghouse, before hiring them.

This is why you ask any contractors for references you can check. Good contractors will provide them willingly.

Another way to get a good contractor (in the first place) is to ask around via a somewhat orthogonal method. For instance, we needed to get a new block fence installed around our house. This wasn't going to be cheap, and we wanted it done right. My wife interviewed several contractors, and half of them were drunk, and the other half couldn't figure out which end of a tape measure to use.

So we got creative: "Who should we call that might know who is a good contractor for block fence construction, and who isn't?"

Well - that's the kind of thing you have to go "inside" the industry; so we figured, well let's call some suppliers of concrete block. A few calls around to these places, asking the people "who would you hire to build a fence" produced a list of candidates from each vendor - and where there were matches, that boosted them on the list. Narrowed it down to three, had them come out and bid, then we went with the guy who struck our fancy best (not with the cheapest - never go with the cheapest, unless they seem the most competent).

We've used this kind of system since (along with checking references and such), and haven't had a problem finding a capable contractor for construction and maintenance work.

Re: If companies interviewed tech recruiters the way they interview programmers

#82

Post by yellingdog »

DavidWoof wrote: post #69
jordanpg wrote: post #20

When I read articles like this, I tend to assume that they are exaggerations written by people who feel burned because they didn't get the job they want and that the reason was unfair interview questions. In other words, I simply don't believe that interviewers are, as a group, so stupid that they regularly ask obscure Excel questions when they are plainly not relevant. To continue with the recruiting example, I susp…

I've been moving around the US for the past few years for personal reasons and I've gone through a round of interviews on every move in a wide variety of situations, and I've honestly never seen anything like this. In fact, I can remember the only two times I didn't actually know the answer to a technical questions, and in both cases I thought they were reasonable questions that tested the limits of what I had recent…

I think the reason you don't see bad questions posted more often is that you get comments like the top comment in this chain, where people believe you're just upset that you didn't get the job.

I also think it is more common for recent graduates to get garbage questions about things you never use. Some of my friends had awful experiences over the last couple of years.

Re: If companies interviewed tech recruiters the way they interview programmers

#83

Post by itsdrewmiller »

dsr_ wrote: post #24

I am, now and on occasion, a hiring manager. Naturally, every freelance recruiter wants to be my friend. They often start cold calls with a description of a person's technical abilities, and then ask if I would be interested in interviewing that person. When that happens, I ask them to define one of the buzzwords that they have just used. "Could you tell me what 'big data' means?" or "What's the difference between AW…

FWIW also a hiring manager, and I wouldn't say I've seen a huge correlation between technical aptitude and efficacy from the recruiters I've worked with. A good recruiter typically learns what you are looking for and who would like to work for you from how far their candidates get into the interview process and the feedback from both sides, and adjusts to match. This doesn't require having much understanding of any of the technology involved.

The primary litmus test I apply, and I think it is quite effective, is "after I tell you I prefer to communicate via email, do you still call me constantly or do you actually stick to email."

Re: If companies interviewed tech recruiters the way they interview programmers

#84

Post by kevstev »

I get that the point of the article is to point out the flaws of technical interviews, but I see a lot of people griping and quite frankly circle jerking about how bad recruiters are.

I am definitely "mid career" at this point and a manager and I consider my "recruiter bench" to be a huge asset, both for when I am hiring, and also looking. The thing is, yes absolutely 80% of them are garbage- they are mere regex's and will likely be out of the industry in a few years.

The other 20%, that really know their shit, and have deep connections in the industry are gold though. What you need to do is find those guys and build relationships with them over time, so when you have an open head, or decide its time, you already have a half dozen people you can call that you have a long relationship that you trust to help get you a job. These guys can also just give you good intelligence- what is hot right now, what is not, who is paying well, which companies despite their darling status at the moment can't seem to keep an engineer in their seats more than a year.

To get that kind of info though, you have to build a relationship. If I see someone that writes a well informed, grammatically correct email to me, I will look them up on LinkedIn. If they have been around awhile, have some shared connections with me, maybe shared some posts that are interesting, I will usually give them a call back and say "hey I am not interested, but lets keep in touch- here are some things that might interest me in a new role, you are welcome to bounce stuff that fits this off me any time." They will inevitably continue to call you over time- and that's when you can start asking them stuff- who is good/bad, etc. Even offer to get drinks (they will almost always pay)- that's when you can get the really good gossip.

If you keep that bench warm, you will likely find that the quality of potential positions thrown your way improves dramatically, as well as the quality of potential candidates. At least that's been my experience.

Re: If companies interviewed tech recruiters the way they interview programmers

#85

Post by poikniok »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #48
jordanpg wrote: post #20

When I read articles like this, I tend to assume that they are exaggerations written by people who feel burned because they didn't get the job they want and that the reason was unfair interview questions. In other words, I simply don't believe that interviewers are, as a group, so stupid that they regularly ask obscure Excel questions when they are plainly not relevant. To continue with the recruiting example, I susp…

I was once interviewing for a fairly generic Java CRUD job, and the interviewer asked me to figure out how to balance a binary search tree. He then interrupted me every minute or so as I was trying to figure out a way to ask me if that was my completed algorithm.

Can you explain what it means to balance a binary search tree? Are you referring to writing your own implementation of AVL or RB trees?

Re: If companies interviewed tech recruiters the way they interview programmers

#86

Post by oega98 »

PeterisP wrote: post #71
mrfusion wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all deserved to be treated with that kind of dignity. I'm not sure where our industry went wrong. You'd never ask a doctor medical school trivia during an interview.

I believe that it started during the dotcom boom, when a lot of unqualified people tried to join the industry despite having no skills - once you get bit by hiring people who claim (and have) job experience but turns out can't code at all, not even on a basic junior level; you need some process to filter them out.

No, it started way before that. I interviewed with Microsoft in 1993 and had to answer questions like "Why are manhole covers round," and "Reverse this linked list." This has been going on for decades.

Re: If companies interviewed tech recruiters the way they interview programmers

#87

Post by poikniok »

aidenn0 wrote: post #77
mrfusion wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all deserved to be treated with that kind of dignity. I'm not sure where our industry went wrong. You'd never ask a doctor medical school trivia during an interview.

I think it's at least partly because how averse many shops are to hiring people; even people who clearly lied on their interview/resume. At one point in the past I worked with someone who was incapable of understanding pass-by-reference; something like: int getFoo(foo *out); A colleague spent multiple hours per day for a week trying to explain this to them. After a week they still were unable to successfully make use…

Isn't this passing by pointer and not passing by reference?

Re: If companies interviewed tech recruiters the way they interview programmers

#88

Post by oega98 »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #44
mrfusion wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all deserved to be treated with that kind of dignity. I'm not sure where our industry went wrong. You'd never ask a doctor medical school trivia during an interview.

Doctors take a test and go through a verifiable apprenticeship period. If Dr. Nidal got his MD from Johns Hopkins and did his residency in pediatric oncology at Sloan Kettering where he is a fellow and has published 2 papers on Nueroblastoma you can safely assume he knows a thing or two about high risk pediatric solid tumor cancers. What do we have for programmers?

I have a shipping product I worked on for 12 years and that is used all over the industry. I have a public mailing list you can search where I answered questions from developers about the product during that entire time. I have a profile on some well-known programming web sites (like Stack Overflow, etc.). I have a degree from a well-known university and actually have at least 1 paper listed on Google Scholar. I still have had to do stupid whiteboard programming exercises of 1st year data structure and algorithm nonsense.

Re: If companies interviewed tech recruiters the way they interview programmers

#89

Post by ryandrake »

cr0sh wrote: post #81
dagw wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of wish I'd gotten the people I hired to build our terrace to first build something small, like a doghouse, before hiring them.

This is why you ask any contractors for references you can check. Good contractors will provide them willingly. Another way to get a good contractor (in the first place) is to ask around via a somewhat orthogonal method. For instance, we needed to get a new block fence installed around our house. This wasn't going to be cheap, and we wanted it done right. My wife interviewed several contractors, and half of them were…

Wow, must be nice to be able to pick and choose. Where I am, if you want someone to do roof repair, appliance repair, HVAC work, etc. you basically go with whoever actually manages to pick up their phone. Everyone seems to have so much business that you often go straight to voicemail, and sometimes the voicemail box is full so you can't even leave a message. When you do get a callback, they're all booked months in advance. Man, why didn't I went into a trade?

Re: If companies interviewed tech recruiters the way they interview programmers

#90

Post by ryanmarsh »

oega98 wrote: post #88
ryanmarsh wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors take a test and go through a verifiable apprenticeship period. If Dr. Nidal got his MD from Johns Hopkins and did his residency in pediatric oncology at Sloan Kettering where he is a fellow and has published 2 papers on Nueroblastoma you can safely assume he knows a thing or two about high risk pediatric solid tumor cancers. What do we have for programmers?

I have a shipping product I worked on for 12 years and that is used all over the industry. I have a public mailing list you can search where I answered questions from developers about the product during that entire time. I have a profile on some well-known programming web sites (like Stack Overflow, etc.). I have a degree from a well-known university and actually have at least 1 paper listed on Google Scholar. I stil…

Yes I'd say you deserve more respect than someone with an unknown background, which is to say most candidates.
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