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How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

fuchsia.googlesource.com

51–60 of 172 posts

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#51
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google didn't invent Android though, they bought it. Fast time to market probably trumped all other concerns at the time. This project probably has a less aggressive timeline.

I'm not sure what that has to do with it. Apple didn't invent OSX/MacOS either, they bought it from NeXT and then used that base to build iOS. Google bought Android in 2005 so they had plenty of time to switch out kernels if licensing concerns were really a factor for them.

Would they? Especially given that they'd already heavily modified their fork to meet their specific needs with ashmem, binder, and logcat? And the fact that they pretty much completely changed direction with user-space development in 2007 to meet the iPhone and not BB?

I seriously doubt they had time to switch to a more user-hostile kernel, given what was already in place. Especially given that they had their hands full programming a user-hostile libc and a user-hostile driver framework that would help hardware vendors with their user-hostile driver-blobs.

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#52
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google didn't invent Android though, they bought it. Fast time to market probably trumped all other concerns at the time. This project probably has a less aggressive timeline.

I'm not sure what that has to do with it. Apple didn't invent OSX/MacOS either, they bought it from NeXT and then used that base to build iOS. Google bought Android in 2005 so they had plenty of time to switch out kernels if licensing concerns were really a factor for them.

[deleted]

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#53
Android for all practical purposes is as good as a closed ecosystem with apps tied to closed source Google services and the inability to run Linux on your Android phones. This kind of lip service and self serving tip toeing around the spirit of open source in many ways does more harm to open source than closed source.

How is it that devices drivers that work on Android perfectly are not available for use on Linux? What purpose does this kind of 'open source' then serve?

Between Arm, its licensees and Google the ball is kicked around with open source devs struggling for years to make things work. Yet the narrative is this is no one's fault least of all Google and Arm, the 2 most powerful forces in the Android ecosystem.

Google the planet's largest spyware and adware company is now making its own kernel. More power to them but given their track record healthy skepticism of their objectives and agenda is called for.

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You gain the knowledge that a device running Fuchsia is running code that's publicly available.

Do you though? Google, as the liscenser is free to keep portions of fuschia under lock and key, so that's not really the case.

You're really not convincing me that Google's intentions are good. Not licensing under GPL is a clear signal that Google is prioritizing hardware partners' needs over their users. Just like Android.

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#55
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Part of the motivation is certainly to get away from the GPL requirements of using Linux," Certainly why? I know, in fact, this is pretty much a non-consideration, so i'm really curious what makes you believe it is. In fact, the fuchsia kernel is completely open source, so ... If you were to bug the SFLC/others, you'd see Google is, in fact, quite happy releasing kernel changes, and is pretty much one of the only co…

Then why is it not licensed under the GPL, like Linux?

The real answer is because the people involved believe the licenses they are using are even more free. IE they do not subscribe to the FSF's ideology.

It's their software, so they get to choose. It's like arguing NetBSD should use the GPL license.

As for why it generally doesn't make sense to use the GPL for this:

Even the FSF doesn't think GPLv2 is the right license for linux?

GPL'ing linux hasn't prevented any of the problems you mention, either in theory or in practice, so why do the same thing and hope for a different result?

(If you've never read it, i suggest you go read the various threads where linus, etc explain that in practice, the only approach that works is carrot, not stick)

It would be the same for Mozilla or anyone else who got popular enough with GPL software and had lots of vendors and OEMs who used their software.

GPL'ing the kernel or not does not change that some people don't follow the rules. You can have them sign it in blood if you want. They'll just work around you or ignore you, as long as there is money to be made. Also, once you are big enough, cutting them off will just attract regulators.

In practice, you will not get them to follow the rules by having a "war on gpl violators" any moreso than we have solved the US drug problem by having a "war on drugs".

If you (or others here) dream is of an ecosystem where everyone is forced, under pain of death, to follow the GPL, it's pretty unrealistic. It's not what happens now, it will never happen.

Rather than pretend that's a realistic way to get people to release source, i'd rather not pretend. i'd rather see something different tried that may have some hope of success.

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#56

Android for all practical purposes is as good as a closed ecosystem with apps tied to closed source Google services and the inability to run Linux on your Android phones. This kind of lip service and self serving tip toeing around the spirit of open source in many ways does more harm to open source than closed source. How is it that devices drivers that work on Android perfectly are not available for use on Linux? Wh…

This is definitely true, and I have a lot of issues with Google and their lip service to open source. (People reading my history will attest, I'm sure.) But at the very least, Fuchsia will be a lot more secure by design than Android, and Android is the dominant OS platform on earth. The state we are right now, where 85% of mobile devices run Android, and 0.7% of them are actually up to date, is a terrifying place to be from a security standpoint.

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#57
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hardware in that Acer laptop looks surprisingly similar to what a current flagship phone has in terms of resources if not exact architecture.

I guess generically in that it has a touchscreen, limited hdd size, etc. It's an i5 Intel x64 CPU though.

I believe my phone runs a 64bit ARM with eight 2.3ghz cores and has the same amount of ram as the base Acer model?

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll ask a related question: Why license it under the GPL? What does Google gain? (and what do you gain)

You gain the knowledge that a device running Fuchsia is running code that's publicly available.

No, you actually don't. You gain knowledge that some of the code is maybe publicly available, just like linux. The rest, however, is often still kept secret, legally or not, and has been since time immemorial.

You don't have to take my word for it though, go ask bradley kuhn if he thinks that vendors have a tendency to comply with the GPL for the kernel :)

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Part of the motivation is certainly to get away from the GPL requirements of using Linux," Certainly why? I know, in fact, this is pretty much a non-consideration, so i'm really curious what makes you believe it is. In fact, the fuchsia kernel is completely open source, so ... If you were to bug the SFLC/others, you'd see Google is, in fact, quite happy releasing kernel changes, and is pretty much one of the only co…

I'm being paranoid here, but would allowing an Apache license let vendors put custom spyware and DRM into the kernel that they wouldn't have to release the source for?

In practice: No more or less so than they could do under linux.
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