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How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

fuchsia.googlesource.com

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Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#31

Post by bitmapbrother »

catern wrote: post #8
pjjhdog wrote: post #2

So I'm not clear what the puropse of fuchsia is. I understand it's an os which may replace android or chomeos but why the move away from linux based systems? Both are open source platforms.

>open source platforms Part of the motivation is certainly to get away from the GPL requirements of using Linux, so that Google and its partners can release products to users that have proprietary modifications to the kernel, without giving those same users access to the source code of the kernel. That would of course be a disaster for user autonomy and freedom, but why should Google care about that... Edit: This isn…

>Part of the motivation is certainly to get away from the GPL requirements of using Linux, so that Google and its partners can release products to users that have proprietary modifications to the kernel, without giving those same users access to the source code of the kernel. That would of course be a disaster for user autonomy and freedom, but why should Google care about that...

I've heard this argument before without any factual evidence to back it up. Google could have easily used the FreeBSD kernel and not had to deal with the GPL if they had wanted to.

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#32

Post by [deleted] »

DannyBee wrote: post #24
catern wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>open source platforms Part of the motivation is certainly to get away from the GPL requirements of using Linux, so that Google and its partners can release products to users that have proprietary modifications to the kernel, without giving those same users access to the source code of the kernel. That would of course be a disaster for user autonomy and freedom, but why should Google care about that... Edit: This isn…

"Part of the motivation is certainly to get away from the GPL requirements of using Linux," Certainly why? I know, in fact, this is pretty much a non-consideration, so i'm really curious what makes you believe it is. In fact, the fuchsia kernel is completely open source, so ... If you were to bug the SFLC/others, you'd see Google is, in fact, quite happy releasing kernel changes, and is pretty much one of the only co…

[deleted]

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#33

Post by joshuamorton »

catern wrote: post #30
DannyBee wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Part of the motivation is certainly to get away from the GPL requirements of using Linux," Certainly why? I know, in fact, this is pretty much a non-consideration, so i'm really curious what makes you believe it is. In fact, the fuchsia kernel is completely open source, so ... If you were to bug the SFLC/others, you'd see Google is, in fact, quite happy releasing kernel changes, and is pretty much one of the only co…

Then why is it not licensed under the GPL, like Linux?

I'll ask a related question: Why license it under the GPL? What does Google gain? (and what do you gain)

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#34

Post by abarth »

stefankomatsu wrote: post #28
abarth wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you create a child process, you can clone your namespace or you can construct a new one for the child. (Disclosure: I wrote the doc linked above.)

Thanks. How about virtualization? Using an example from the doc, if your child process accesses "/dev/class/framebuffer", can you intercept its communications? Can a process create a custom sandbox and run, say, AppMgr with limited permission to limit the permissions of all apps it manages?

> Using an example from the doc, if your child process accesses "/dev/class/framebuffer", can you intercept its communications?

Yes. When creating the namespace for the child, the parent can map names to what whatever communication channels it chooses. If the parent wants to interpose on the child's access to "/dev/class/framebuffer", the parent could map that name to a channel that leads back to the parent.

> Can a process create a custom sandbox and run, say, AppMgr with limited permission to limit the permissions of all apps it manages?

Yes. That's useful for testing as well as for sandboxing.

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#35

Post by klodolph »

pjjhdog wrote: post #2

So I'm not clear what the puropse of fuchsia is. I understand it's an os which may replace android or chomeos but why the move away from linux based systems? Both are open source platforms.

I don't know what Google's purpose for Fuchsia is, but Linux was originally designed for a security model which is uncommon these days. The Linux security model protects different users from each other, but these days it's much more common that a computer will only have one user, and you want to protect that one user from potentially harmful code.

Capability-based security is a big step in that direction. I don't know what "they're both open-source" has to do with it, obviously there are other reasons to choose between different pieces of software besides the license.

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#36

Post by bitmapbrother »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #26
abarth wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you create a child process, you can clone your namespace or you can construct a new one for the child. (Disclosure: I wrote the doc linked above.)

Someone told me there were ex-devs of QNX microkernel doing Google's. Is that true?

Not sure about QNX, but the lead developers are ex Be, Danger, Palm and Apple.

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#37

Post by stefankomatsu »

abarth wrote: post #34
stefankomatsu wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. How about virtualization? Using an example from the doc, if your child process accesses "/dev/class/framebuffer", can you intercept its communications? Can a process create a custom sandbox and run, say, AppMgr with limited permission to limit the permissions of all apps it manages?

> Using an example from the doc, if your child process accesses "/dev/class/framebuffer", can you intercept its communications? Yes. When creating the namespace for the child, the parent can map names to what whatever communication channels it chooses. If the parent wants to interpose on the child's access to "/dev/class/framebuffer", the parent could map that name to a channel that leads back to the parent. > Can a…

Appreciate your your answers. This makes Fuchsia quite interesting to me.

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#38

Post by nickpsecurity »

bitmapbrother wrote: post #36
nickpsecurity wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone told me there were ex-devs of QNX microkernel doing Google's. Is that true?

Not sure about QNX, but the lead developers are ex Be, Danger, Palm and Apple.

Thanks for that clarification. That is an interesting mix.

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#39

Post by armitron »

pjjhdog wrote: post #2

So I'm not clear what the puropse of fuchsia is. I understand it's an os which may replace android or chomeos but why the move away from linux based systems? Both are open source platforms.

Linux is a disaster security-wise (look at how massive things like grsecurity are) and that won't change anytime soon. Android has inherited all of that and it's by far the shittiest mobile OS out there in terms of how easy it is to own.

It makes sense that Google would like to move away from Linux given how important mobile security is and will become in the future. They certainly have the resources to get it right, starting from a clean slate.

Re: How sandboxing works in Fuchsia

#40

Post by bitmapbrother »

pjjhdog wrote: post #2

So I'm not clear what the puropse of fuchsia is. I understand it's an os which may replace android or chomeos but why the move away from linux based systems? Both are open source platforms.

I think it's pretty clear. They want an OS that can scale to any device. Whether Fuchsia replaces Android is unclear, but having their own PC OS in which Android can seamlessly integrate with much like iOS and MacOS can is very appealing.
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