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China begins first of eight large-scale carbon capture projects

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Re: China begins first of eight large-scale carbon capture projects

#11

Post by semi-extrinsic »

lnanek2 wrote: post #6
spodek wrote: post #2

Capturing carbon is a valuable step, but only as part of a process that net removes it from the atmosphere. This project doesn't seem to have that goal. > " China's new CCS project will remove CO2 from two coal gasification (syngas) plants and re-inject the gas into previously exhausted oil fields. " > " CCS "is an important set of technologies for reducing emissions from fossil fuel use, while enabling important res…

> The CO2 in the ground won't likely stay there forever but much of it will seep back into the atmosphere. That's really not the case. The injected CO2 is under such pressure that it stays liquid. We don't worry about massive oil seepage from kilometers underground, and studies have shown we don't have to worry about CO2 either: https://hub.globalccsinstitute.com/sites/default/files/publi... E.g.: " The CO2 being inj…

The technical word for "kind of a liquid" is supercritical. See e.g.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercritical_fluid#Phase_diag...

Re: China begins first of eight large-scale carbon capture projects

#12

Post by semi-extrinsic »

spodek wrote: post #2

Capturing carbon is a valuable step, but only as part of a process that net removes it from the atmosphere. This project doesn't seem to have that goal. > " China's new CCS project will remove CO2 from two coal gasification (syngas) plants and re-inject the gas into previously exhausted oil fields. " > " CCS "is an important set of technologies for reducing emissions from fossil fuel use, while enabling important res…

> Capturing carbon is a valuable step, but only as part of a process that net removes it from the atmosphere.

The IPCC, the IEA, and a boatload of scientists disagree. We cannot prevent catastrophic global warming without doing the type of CCS you describe as useless. Sure, we also want to be doing stuff that's net carbon negative, but that's a long way into the future.

And CCS from power generation is only one aspect. CCS from cement plants, steel furnaces etc. is another thing we need - those processes will inherently emit large amounts of CO2 even if electric power is 100% renewable.

Finally, when it comes to capture from air, I think stuff like "biomass -> syngas -> water shift -> separation of CO2 captured and stored, H2 produced for energy" is much more likely to be successful, because you can make it net CO2 negative and it produces something valuable as a byproduct. Capture from air is a whole 'nother matter, starting from a very low CO2 partial pressure and thus very inefficient.

(I work in CCS, happy to answer questions.)

Re: China begins first of eight large-scale carbon capture projects

#13

Post by ratpik »

Carbon Clean Solutions built a plant in Tuticorin in southern India that captures carbon dioxide from its coal-fired boiler and converts it into soda ash (a chemical cousin of the baking soda you buy in a grocery store). And, in what Sharma says is a world’s first, the commercial-scale plant set to capture 60,000 tons of CO2 annually does it so cheaply that it did not need any government subsidies.

Before Carbon Clean Solutions came along, the Tuticorin chemicals plant used to buy carbon dioxide to make its soda ash. It also bought coal to fire up its boiler. Now, instead of wasting carbon dioxide that burning coal produced, the plant is capturing it and saving the money on buying any more carbon dioxide. As a plus, the CO2 supply is also more reliable than before.

“I am a businessman,” Ramachandran Gopalan, the managing director of the Tuticorin plant, told the BBC. “I never thought about saving the planet. I needed a reliable stream of CO2, and this was the best way of getting it.”

https://qz.com/878674/two-indian-engineers-have-drastically-...

Re: China begins first of eight large-scale carbon capture projects

#14

Post by pm90 »

ratpik wrote: post #13

Carbon Clean Solutions built a plant in Tuticorin in southern India that captures carbon dioxide from its coal-fired boiler and converts it into soda ash (a chemical cousin of the baking soda you buy in a grocery store). And, in what Sharma says is a world’s first, the commercial-scale plant set to capture 60,000 tons of CO2 annually does it so cheaply that it did not need any government subsidies. Before Carbon Clea…

Amazing article. And a great way to show that being environmentally friendly and business friendly don't always have to be mutually exclusive.

Re: China begins first of eight large-scale carbon capture projects

#15

Post by undersuit »

throw2016 wrote: post #8

On one hand there is much concern and awareness about the environment and our carbon footprint. Businesses globally are under pressure to become greener. Individuals are trying to do their bit. There is activism and global concern. On the other hand bitcoin and other crypto currencies continue to encourage millions to waste power for no useful reason beyond speculation without a care in the world, and without being c…

It's it fair to attack cryptocurrencies for being wasteful when far more resources are being "wasted" on entertainment? How about we go after vacations? Cruises, airplanes, hotels sitting mostly vacant, RVs, snow mobiles in the winter, boating in the summer. How are these not wasteful?

Or rather why are you calling out Bitcoin instead?

Re: China begins first of eight large-scale carbon capture projects

#16

Post by throw2016 »

undersuit wrote: post #15
throw2016 wrote: post #8

On one hand there is much concern and awareness about the environment and our carbon footprint. Businesses globally are under pressure to become greener. Individuals are trying to do their bit. There is activism and global concern. On the other hand bitcoin and other crypto currencies continue to encourage millions to waste power for no useful reason beyond speculation without a care in the world, and without being c…

It's it fair to attack cryptocurrencies for being wasteful when far more resources are being "wasted" on entertainment? How about we go after vacations? Cruises, airplanes, hotels sitting mostly vacant, RVs, snow mobiles in the winter, boating in the summer. How are these not wasteful? Or rather why are you calling out Bitcoin instead?

Consider this, you have this huge truck consuming gallons of fuel and expending pollution and you have to drive it up and down a 1km road 24/7 to get some tokens. And that's it, just drive up and down. Do you think this is a proper use of scarce resources? Is this defensible?

You point to other trucks on the road, they are transporting goods and providing essential services to society and both truck manufacturers and users are under pressure to increase efficiency and reduce waste and pollution.

In this context how would you judge an individual who introduces a token that simply requires trucks to drive up and down 24/7. Would it be fair to say this is an act of utter recklessness and irresponsibility?

Re: China begins first of eight large-scale carbon capture projects

#17

Post by Eridrus »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #12
spodek wrote: post #2

Capturing carbon is a valuable step, but only as part of a process that net removes it from the atmosphere. This project doesn't seem to have that goal. > " China's new CCS project will remove CO2 from two coal gasification (syngas) plants and re-inject the gas into previously exhausted oil fields. " > " CCS "is an important set of technologies for reducing emissions from fossil fuel use, while enabling important res…

> Capturing carbon is a valuable step, but only as part of a process that net removes it from the atmosphere. The IPCC, the IEA, and a boatload of scientists disagree. We cannot prevent catastrophic global warming without doing the type of CCS you describe as useless. Sure, we also want to be doing stuff that's net carbon negative, but that's a long way into the future. And CCS from power generation is only one aspec…

How effective is carbon capture? Are we talking 30% less carbon? 99% less carbon? somewhere in the middle?

How much cost does it add to a typical coal plant? How does that compare to new solar installations?

Is carbon capture tech renewable? I.e. does it depend on some finite chemical material?

Is carbon capture feasible in smaller scales? E.g. can we stick a carbon capture system on a car?

Re: China begins first of eight large-scale carbon capture projects

#18

Post by BrandonMarc »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #12
spodek wrote: post #2

Capturing carbon is a valuable step, but only as part of a process that net removes it from the atmosphere. This project doesn't seem to have that goal. > " China's new CCS project will remove CO2 from two coal gasification (syngas) plants and re-inject the gas into previously exhausted oil fields. " > " CCS "is an important set of technologies for reducing emissions from fossil fuel use, while enabling important res…

> Capturing carbon is a valuable step, but only as part of a process that net removes it from the atmosphere. The IPCC, the IEA, and a boatload of scientists disagree. We cannot prevent catastrophic global warming without doing the type of CCS you describe as useless. Sure, we also want to be doing stuff that's net carbon negative, but that's a long way into the future. And CCS from power generation is only one aspec…

> Sure, we also want to be doing stuff that's net carbon negative, but that's a long way into the future.

Isn't refusing emitted carbon (net negative) the entire point? That wouldn't be an "also" then, and newfangled ideas that don't give such a result are nothing to be excited about.

Seems to me capturing from the air is a wholly separate matter, whereas capturing at the source (i.e. power plant) should be the focus.

Re: China begins first of eight large-scale carbon capture projects

#19

Post by BrandonMarc »

lnanek2 wrote: post #6
spodek wrote: post #2

Capturing carbon is a valuable step, but only as part of a process that net removes it from the atmosphere. This project doesn't seem to have that goal. > " China's new CCS project will remove CO2 from two coal gasification (syngas) plants and re-inject the gas into previously exhausted oil fields. " > " CCS "is an important set of technologies for reducing emissions from fossil fuel use, while enabling important res…

> The CO2 in the ground won't likely stay there forever but much of it will seep back into the atmosphere. That's really not the case. The injected CO2 is under such pressure that it stays liquid. We don't worry about massive oil seepage from kilometers underground, and studies have shown we don't have to worry about CO2 either: https://hub.globalccsinstitute.com/sites/default/files/publi... E.g.: " The CO2 being inj…

> We don't worry about massive oil seepage from kilometers underground

I dunno, I sure hear a lot of hand-wringing over fracking and the water supply.

Re: China begins first of eight large-scale carbon capture projects

#20

Post by xaedes »

undersuit wrote: post #15
throw2016 wrote: post #8

On one hand there is much concern and awareness about the environment and our carbon footprint. Businesses globally are under pressure to become greener. Individuals are trying to do their bit. There is activism and global concern. On the other hand bitcoin and other crypto currencies continue to encourage millions to waste power for no useful reason beyond speculation without a care in the world, and without being c…

It's it fair to attack cryptocurrencies for being wasteful when far more resources are being "wasted" on entertainment? How about we go after vacations? Cruises, airplanes, hotels sitting mostly vacant, RVs, snow mobiles in the winter, boating in the summer. How are these not wasteful? Or rather why are you calling out Bitcoin instead?

Because the one is making things exceptional computational expensive by design. The other not.
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