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Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

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Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#51

Post by JdeBP »

jameskegel wrote: post #14
beefhash wrote: post #7

HEADLINE First-class init that is not systemd DESCRIPTION I believe it's notorious that systemd is highly controversial, even spinning off a fork called Devuan. It might be more favorable to reunite the community by including one alternative init system that is, fundamentally, a first-class citizen in the Debian ecosystem. "First-class" implies that the user is given a choice on new installations in a specified promp…

I would love some type of toggle, or "last chance to turn back" during install as far as being able to signal what type of init system I'd like to use.

The problem is that no-one has incorporated a modification to the Debian installer to have this. There are so-called "preseed" hooks that one can use to manually alter what packages the Debian installer installs. Putting in place pre-seed hooks that permitted something other than systemd to be installed ab initio was one of the first things that the Devuan people did, about two and a half years ago.

But no-one to my knowledge has yet done the work to give the Debian installer this capability without the need for pre-seed hooks, as a menu item/checkbox/question for the administrator to pick/tick/answer. Such work is more than merely writing code, note. It involves testing it too. Thoroughly.

* https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Preseed

* https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd

Ironically, this was once a problem the other way around. Attempted changes to enable administrators to select systemd at install time (and indeed upstart, as you can see) failed to make it past a Debian gatekeeper.

* https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=668001

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#52

Post by hsivonen »

HEADLINE: Provide rolling compiler packages in stable

DESCRIPTION:

There are users who simultaneously want to get their infrastructural packages like compilers from their distro and want to build fresh upstream application releases from source.

This leads to pressure for Linux apps and libraries to be buildable using whatever compiler version(s) that shipped in Debian stable, which amounts to Debian stable inflicting a negative externality on the ecosystem by holding apps and libraries back in terms of what language features they feel they can use.

To avoid this negative externality, please provide the latest release (latest at any point in time, not just at time of Debian stable relase) of gcc, clang, rustc+cargo, etc. as rolling packages in Debian stable alongside the frozen version used for building Debian-shipped packages so that Linux apps and libraries aren't pressured to refrain from adopting new language features as upstream compilers add support.

(Arguably, the users in question should either get their apps from Debian stable or get their compilers from outside Debian stable, too, but the above still seems a relevant concern in practice.)

DISTRIBUTION: stable

ROLE: Upstream browser developer. (Not speaking on behalf of affiliation.)

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#53

Post by voltagex_ »

jopsen wrote: post #39

HEADLINE: Lower barrier for contributors DESCRIPTION: Have a git repo for each package with a simple issue tracker, like GitHub/gitlab, a flow for accepting pull-requests and automated CI. Also move away from message boards and IRC to more user friendly tools. Currently, it's too hard to report bugs, inspect debian source packages, propose fixes, etc. The overhead to making a simple contribution is too high. Note: th…

You need some linebreaks in your post.

This issue could be helped with some tactical updates to the Debian Wiki. I'm in two minds about IRC - I'd hate to see it disappear and go to something like Slack, but I understand it's a bit daunting.

#debian-mentors on OFTC can help with contributions to Debian.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#54

Post by voltagex_ »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #15

HEADLINE: Full audit of what's in "standard" and "important" DESCRIPTION: There have been numerous detailed analyses posted to debian-devel that go through every package in standard and important and list out which ones shouldn't be. However, actual changes have only ever been made here on a point-by-point basis. (I've managed to get a dozen or so packages downgraded to "optional" and out of the default install by fi…

I'm interested in this - does this mean the size of a default install becomes smaller?

Is there anywhere to read more about this?

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#55

Post by lamby »

keithpeter wrote: post #36

- HEADLINE: Continue to provide a mechanism for offline installation of a large selection of the repository. - DESCRIPTION: Debian is the only distribution that I know of that provides .iso images from which you can install the operating system and subsequently install a wide range of (libre) software. In addition, Debian provides update .isos. These affordances make installing and maintaining a desktop computer with…

> without an Internet connection, or with a slow and expensive connection

Could you elaborate more on your particular use-case? Would be interested if there were also compromise solutions such as smarter binary diffs, etc.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#56

Post by voltagex_ »

jl6 wrote: post #18

HEADLINE: Out of the box support for being run in VirtualBox. DESCRIPTION: I tested the stretch release candidates in VirtualBox, and while I did eventually get them working, I had to follow the instructions in several bug reports from across both the Debian and VirtualBox probably project websites. I don't mind following instructions, so if there is a reason why this can't be achieved seamlessly with zero configurat…

Any issues you have should definitely be submitted as bug reports. I run Stretch and Jessie in VirtualBox just fine, but a few of the d-i RCs were a bit shaky.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#57

Post by rahiel »

avar wrote: post #38

HEADLINE: Better support for non-free firmware during installation DESCRIPTION: Long-time Debian user here and free software supporter. One aspect where I don't have any practical choice for free software is my non-free iwlwifi firmware. It's a huge PITA to install Debian like that when you don't have the fallback of a wired network. You provide "non-free" firmware packages, but these don't have the actual firmware!…

Debian already provides images with non-free firmware: https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-in...

I use these when installing on laptops.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#58

Post by voltagex_ »

lamby wrote: post #23
feikname wrote: post #12

HEADLINE WiFi-direct GUI DESCRIPTION Using WiFi direct on most debian-based distros is a hassle, requiring a lot of manual terminal work. A GUI in the network section for WiFi Direct would make connections easier and faster.

Is there an existing such feature in other distributions out of interest?

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/31877144/how-to-set-up-a...

Connman appears to be the only GUI option here: https://01.org/connman

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#59

Post by JdeBP »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #44
beefhash wrote: post #7

HEADLINE First-class init that is not systemd DESCRIPTION I believe it's notorious that systemd is highly controversial, even spinning off a fork called Devuan. It might be more favorable to reunite the community by including one alternative init system that is, fundamentally, a first-class citizen in the Debian ecosystem. "First-class" implies that the user is given a choice on new installations in a specified promp…

What do you dislike about systemd? Do you disagree with the ideas behind it, or is your discontentment more about the specific implementation of those ideas? Can you give examples?

beefhash's explicitly stated rationale was reuniting the community. By attempting to derail this into yet another massive thread about the merits/demerits of systemd, rather than a discussion of the desired future and already present capabilities of the Debian installer, and putting words into beefhash´s mouth that xe did not say as you have done here, you are instigating exactly the opposite.

* http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/

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