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Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

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Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#11

Post by JoshTriplett »

Dunedan wrote: post #2

HEADER Python 3 as default DESCRIPTION Just to quote from the packaging manual: > Debian currently supports two Python stacks, one for Python 3 and one for Python 2. The long term goal for Debian is to reduce this to one stack, dropping the Python 2 stack at some time. The first step for that would be of course Python 3 as default Python version and I'd like to see that for buster, as Python 3 nowadays offers way mor…

Upstream Python specifically recommends against installing Python 3 as /usr/bin/python; see PEP 394 at https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ . Beyond that, many of Debian's python-using packages are already migrating over, and I'd expect the rest to likely migrate in buster.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#13

Post by raverbashing »

problems wrote: post #9
Dunedan wrote: post #2

HEADER Python 3 as default DESCRIPTION Just to quote from the packaging manual: > Debian currently supports two Python stacks, one for Python 3 and one for Python 2. The long term goal for Debian is to reduce this to one stack, dropping the Python 2 stack at some time. The first step for that would be of course Python 3 as default Python version and I'd like to see that for buster, as Python 3 nowadays offers way mor…

But ultimately isn't the first choice for most Python projects to date. So many scripts have python paths expecting python 2 hardcoded and pretty much everything that wants python3 calls python3. I'm firmly against this for compatibility reasons, it breaks too much.

Calling python3 for a python 3 binary is ok

I don't see how older python 2 programs can be supported without updating the hashbang line in a Py3 default system (which is most of the time trivial) - you could also have a dedicated virtualenv for them as well which would work - and which would (looks like to) be an equivalent amount of work as changing the hashbang lines

Switching to default Py3 is a breaking change and that's fine

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#14

Post by jameskegel »

beefhash wrote: post #7

HEADLINE First-class init that is not systemd DESCRIPTION I believe it's notorious that systemd is highly controversial, even spinning off a fork called Devuan. It might be more favorable to reunite the community by including one alternative init system that is, fundamentally, a first-class citizen in the Debian ecosystem. "First-class" implies that the user is given a choice on new installations in a specified promp…

I would love some type of toggle, or "last chance to turn back" during install as far as being able to signal what type of init system I'd like to use.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#15

Post by JoshTriplett »

HEADLINE: Full audit of what's in "standard" and "important"

DESCRIPTION: There have been numerous detailed analyses posted to debian-devel that go through every package in standard and important and list out which ones shouldn't be. However, actual changes have only ever been made here on a point-by-point basis. (I've managed to get a dozen or so packages downgraded to "optional" and out of the default install by filing bugs and convincing the maintainer.) I'd really like to see a systematic review that results in a large number of packages moved to "optional".

This would include downgrading all the libraries that are only there because things depending on them are (no longer something enforced by policy). And among other things, this may also require developing support in the default desktop environment for displaying notifications for urgent log messages, the way the console does for kernel messages. (And the console should do so for urgent non-kernel messages, too.)

DISTRIBUTION: Start with unstable early in the development cycle, so that people can test it out with a d-i install or debootstrap install of unstable.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#16

Post by rxlim »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #10
beefhash wrote: post #7

HEADLINE First-class init that is not systemd DESCRIPTION I believe it's notorious that systemd is highly controversial, even spinning off a fork called Devuan. It might be more favorable to reunite the community by including one alternative init system that is, fundamentally, a first-class citizen in the Debian ecosystem. "First-class" implies that the user is given a choice on new installations in a specified promp…

Debian is already one of the few distributions that goes out of its way to provide support for non-systemd init systems. Beyond that, it would help if a non-systemd init system as capable as systemd existed; if one did, I'm sure that Debian would include it and support it. This is a case where the problem isn't "please package and support", it's "please develop".

> Debian is already one of the few distributions that goes out of its way to provide support for non-systemd init systems.

How does this manifest itself in practice? I don't want to use systemd in Debian 9, what has been done so I can easily change to another init like runit?

In practice it's not possible because of so many (unecessary) dependencies on systemd.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#17

Post by JoshTriplett »

HEADLINE: Switch to persistent journald by default

DESCRIPTION: Right now, Debian's default install includes rsyslog, and every message gets logged twice. Once in rsyslog on disk, and once in journald in memory. Let's turn on the persistent journal by default, and demote rsyslog to optional. (People who want syslog-based logging can still trivially install it, such as people in an environment that wants network-based syslogging. But that's not the common case.) This will make it easier to get urgent messages displayed in desktop environments as well.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#18

Post by jl6 »

HEADLINE: Out of the box support for being run in VirtualBox.

DESCRIPTION: I tested the stretch release candidates in VirtualBox, and while I did eventually get them working, I had to follow the instructions in several bug reports from across both the Debian and VirtualBox probably project websites.

I don't mind following instructions, so if there is a reason why this can't be achieved seamlessly with zero configuration, then I would at least like to see some official instructions prominent on the Debian website.

COMMENT: Debian is awesome, thanks for everyone's hard work!

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#19

Post by JoshTriplett »

rxlim wrote: post #16
JoshTriplett wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debian is already one of the few distributions that goes out of its way to provide support for non-systemd init systems. Beyond that, it would help if a non-systemd init system as capable as systemd existed; if one did, I'm sure that Debian would include it and support it. This is a case where the problem isn't "please package and support", it's "please develop".

> Debian is already one of the few distributions that goes out of its way to provide support for non-systemd init systems. How does this manifest itself in practice? I don't want to use systemd in Debian 9, what has been done so I can easily change to another init like runit? In practice it's not possible because of so many (unecessary) dependencies on systemd.

It means that you can install sysvinit or any sysvinit-compatible init, and all daemon packages still provide init scripts, as painful as that is. And Debian still supports installing systemd-shim instead of systemd, so you can have a desktop system with a non-systemd init and it'll still function.

> In practice it's not possible because of so many (unecessary) dependencies on systemd.

Such as? As far as I can tell, almost nothing depends on systemd. A handful of things depend on libpam-systemd (for session management), which functions with systemd-shim.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#20

Post by rxlim »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #19
rxlim wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Debian is already one of the few distributions that goes out of its way to provide support for non-systemd init systems. How does this manifest itself in practice? I don't want to use systemd in Debian 9, what has been done so I can easily change to another init like runit? In practice it's not possible because of so many (unecessary) dependencies on systemd.

It means that you can install sysvinit or any sysvinit-compatible init, and all daemon packages still provide init scripts, as painful as that is. And Debian still supports installing systemd-shim instead of systemd, so you can have a desktop system with a non-systemd init and it'll still function. > In practice it's not possible because of so many (unecessary) dependencies on systemd. Such as? As far as I can tell,…

The amount of work that goes into Devuan for pulling out systemd of Debian Jessie is clear evidence that what you are saying is not easily possible.
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