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European leaders call for open access to all scientific papers by 2020 (2016)

sciencemag.org

81–90 of 105 posts

Re: European leaders call for open access to all scientific papers by 2020 (2016)

#81

This probably comes up all the time in these discussions, but any change in this area has to be top down. i.e., People with influence and job security like tenured faculty need to signal a change and move to open access. A grad student or an assistant professor isn't going to put his/her career on the line for ideals. I'm not too familiar with the journal culture, but at least in CS with conferences, all the critical…

Correct. These stories always make it sound like it's the big bad private journals that are trying to steal all the taxpayer-funded research which should belong to the people. But the scientists are the ones that are (still) sending their results to private journals for publications. They could instead chose to send it to OA journals, and some do.

> make it sound like it's the big bad private journals that are trying to steal all the taxpayer-funded research which should belong to the people

Research Works Act, where Elsevier et al tried to do literally this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_Works_Act

Re: European leaders call for open access to all scientific papers by 2020 (2016)

#82

I don't understand how governments have the authority to make private companies (journal publishers) give-away their product for free. The fact that much of the research is funded by taxpayers is not relevant -- scientists have voluntarily submitted their work to private publishers for publication. Going forward, perhaps they should stop doing that. But for work that was previously published? It's rightly owned by th…

> most of them don't care (source: I'm a scientist).

But taxpayers' money are spent on journal subscriptions. So there might be people who care.

Re: European leaders call for open access to all scientific papers by 2020 (2016)

#83
post #2

Getting papers refereed and distributed does cost. I think many journals are now charging more than £1k for accepting papers for open access, conferences charge fees ~£.5k or more (+ travel). Of course you can submit to arXiv, but that's moderated - not refereed and is sponsored by wonderful people - but what if one day the people paying for it stop being so wonderful. In the past the cost of papers was paid on the d…

Most Open Access journals have special exemptions for poor scientists, institutions, and countries. On Elsevier and Hindawi and IEEE, if you are from a low income country, Open Access publishing is free.

Re: European leaders call for open access to all scientific papers by 2020 (2016)

#84

I am ambivalent about this. "Open Access" would definitely mean more access to articles but at what costs? The costs for OA in Elsevier (for example) could easily go beyond 1000$ [0]. Open Access does not mean access to articles at a higher costs. OA is to access articles for which you already paid for. Here, I see a sort of double payment - tax payer research funds + article access. Why should we pay exorbitant arti…

I was under the impression that they would force open access for free.

I would be happy to change my position. Do you have any links which make you feel so?

Re: European leaders call for open access to all scientific papers by 2020 (2016)

#86
post #4

This is limited to public-funded research results, I think. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/may/28/eu-ministers...

Which is the vast majority of published research results.

That's true. But still, it seems odd that most of the coverage doesn't mention that limitation.

Re: European leaders call for open access to all scientific papers by 2020 (2016)

#87
post #69

This probably comes up all the time in these discussions, but any change in this area has to be top down. i.e., People with influence and job security like tenured faculty need to signal a change and move to open access. A grad student or an assistant professor isn't going to put his/her career on the line for ideals. I'm not too familiar with the journal culture, but at least in CS with conferences, all the critical…

But if the high level accademics don't move to access on their own, government certainly has a large role in encouraging and incentivizing them to make the change, especially considering they provide a large amount of funding for academic institutions and research. Government action can certainly help us get there faster and more certainly than were we to wait for people to do it of their own accord.

It's not that simple. Where I live and work the implementation of these policies is actually quite horrible. We're supposed to put everything in open access repositories under a creative commons license and at the same time are supposed to publish in top journals if we want to have any career prospects. But almost no reputable journal of any rank and name allows this dual licensing - not Springer, De Gryuter, Oxford Journals, which alone make up > 90% of all journals in my area, and many journals demand the author to sign a copyright transfer agreement or equally strong publishing contracts.

When we pointed out this conflict to superiors, top science administration officials and university directors and asked about legal support, the idea was that we get no legal support whatsoever! If we breach a publisher's contract because we're forced to by the government, we're on our own. And it doesn't stop there. Assessment of tenure track positions is done by committees that are not staffed with science administration people but with independent peer reviewers, of course, so the procedures cannot really be changed. But if they could be changed somehow, e.g. by forcing these panels to disregard closed access publications, we'd get a whole generation of complete crackpot professors and the level of science would go down the gutter nationwide, because there are simply not enough reputable open access journals. Anybody can upload something in an open access repository, whereas the top journals I'm talking about have acceptance rates below 5%.

So for us currently the choice is between ignoring the open access policies and getting into trouble with the local science administration folks, or giving up our careers and any prospects to ever get a fixed position, and most people chose the former for obvious reasons.

Re: European leaders call for open access to all scientific papers by 2020 (2016)

#88
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What motivates the senior scientists to do this? Is it because they want to guide the latest research in high-impact journals, oblivious of any profit motive? In the life sciences, many top researchers are actually editors or on the board of journals in their field. From my experience, there is no doubt that relationships with editors help a scientist publish in better journals. And sour relationships make it harder…

I get voted into oblivion every time I post this when this topic comes up (which is like, every other day), but the fact of the matter is that nobody cares about 'open access' in academia (well, not 'nobody' in the pedantic nerd sense, but 'nobody' as in 'only a vocal but ultimately insignificant minority', mostly very junior researchers - who usually don't even have their PhD's yet; the number of senior faculty staf…

> mostly very junior researchers - who usually don't even have their PhD's yet

Do you have evidence to support this claim? I have heard major open access support coming from very senior and influent members of diverse research communities.

Even assuming that you are right, don't you think that age may be a confounding variable? Of course the opponents to the status quo are not often found among its the most established members. Of course researchers who have always worked with the Internet are more hostile towards editors as they have never known the times where they were providing a useful and nontrivial service.

> elevated numbers of dogmatic purists who don't see the value of interpersonal relations

This is ad hominem, and a weird one at that. I don't see how the "value of interpersonal relations" has any relationship with the issue at hand.

> The thing is that everybody who 'needs' access to research papers [...] has it [...]

Sci-Hub was serving 200k download requests per day in early 2016 (source: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/04/whos-downloading-pira...). so it looks like in fact many people need to access scientific articles and are not served well by the current system. (You may say that it doesn't matter as long as Sci-Hub is around, but Sci-Hub cannot get funding easily or be advertised widely, because of the legal insecurity around the precious service that it provides.)

> who like to make up scenarios of how many papers they'd read if only

The issue isn't about how many papers we would read. Open access advocates usually have access to subscriptions. The problem is about people outside academia.

Yes, many papers are actually not read that much at all, and certainly are not read a lot outside of academia. But it's certainly not true that there is zero interest for academic research outside academia. The most obvious example are the numerous HN submissions and comments about stories related to open access, often coming for people who care about getting access to scientific articles but are not academics.

Further, the problem of closed-access is that it perpetuates the disconnection between academia and the rest of the world. If you have to hunt for scientific papers, it's sure that not many people outside academia will want to read them. The same for developing countries: poor universities can't get access to research, so they can't contribute to research, and are locked out of the system. Open-access is about saying that science is not a private club but is open to anyone.

> you send a quick email to the authors and get papers that way

(1.) You have to know that you can do this, most people outside academia do not, and it's not obvious: usually when faced with a paywall on, e.g. an online newspaper, you don't ask the authors. (2.) This only works for authors who have contact information online, are responsive, in particular are alive. (3.) As a researcher I download around a paper a day on average, if I have to find contact info and write and send an email and wait for a reply for each of them, it adds up. (4.) If the authors send you their papers, they may be violating their editor's copyright, so this is still a broken system. You can say it doesn't matter and that I'm a dogmatic purist, but meh, to me it's not OK that a third party can tell me I don't have the right to share my work. It's not OK that distributing my work is an integral part of my job but is a legal minefield because of a problem which shouldn't exist.

> people for whom 9 times out of 10 this makes no difference to their lives whatsoever

As a researcher, I have to sign away to editors the rights to the research that I produce, so that the editors can sell it to unsuspecting people in exchange for having put zero effort in doing the research. Meanwhile I have to work around legal obstacles to put my work online under an open license. I'd like to tell people to do what they want with my work (the way I do with my code with open-source licenses), but I can't, because maybe it's not true and publishers would have the right to object. As a taxpayer, I see the government wasting tens of millions in subscriptions to journals so that universities can buy access to the contents of public research, so I am an accomplice of this if I publish in closed-access journals. I have seen many good students get disgusted of academia when it turned out that they had to give away all rights to their work so that some corporation could make money out of it; many of my non-academic friends blame me and other researchers for their participation to this ridiculous system.

There are some valid points in what you write, but I don't understand the hostility. Even if open access mattered as little as what you seem to think, it's still a step in the right direction, so why so much contempt?

Re: European leaders call for open access to all scientific papers by 2020 (2016)

#89
post #38
post #20

Awesome. I do think all publicly funded research papers should be available. Research done by private companies using their own funds however shouldn't be. Maybe if America had open access, things would of turned out a lot better for Aaron Swartz :(

The increase in GDP should make it profitable for government to fund all journals. The cost is relatively small as compared to the benefit to all citizens, allowing them to understand new technologies, business and social structures. Like education, this seems like a way to spend public funds with a high return on investment. Obviously this isn't the only reason governments should spend money--veterans and health car…

> The cost is relatively small as compared to the benefit to all citizens

The cost is in fact small just compared to the subscription fees. I don't have the statistics for how much countries pay editors in subscription fees (because in fact these deals are often negociated in private and the terms are secret), but I think it is highly likely that this money is several times higher than what it would cost to run everything on private money.

Re: European leaders call for open access to all scientific papers by 2020 (2016)

#90
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What motivates the senior scientists to do this? Is it because they want to guide the latest research in high-impact journals, oblivious of any profit motive? In the life sciences, many top researchers are actually editors or on the board of journals in their field. From my experience, there is no doubt that relationships with editors help a scientist publish in better journals. And sour relationships make it harder…

I get voted into oblivion every time I post this when this topic comes up (which is like, every other day), but the fact of the matter is that nobody cares about 'open access' in academia (well, not 'nobody' in the pedantic nerd sense, but 'nobody' as in 'only a vocal but ultimately insignificant minority', mostly very junior researchers - who usually don't even have their PhD's yet; the number of senior faculty staf…

Hello. Mid-career scientist/engineer/entrepreneur here.

The majority of academics I have talked to about this in real life (let's say... 30-40 out of 50) thought we sorely needed open access in terms of:

- The public pays for science, they should be able to see the result

- Lots of out-of-work and between-jobs academics, scientists-turned-entrepreneur, scientists in small companies etc. that can't access a research library

- It's morally wrong to have the public sector hand so much money to a few private companies like Elsevier for doing very little besides existing and rent-seeking.

- Scientists and the public in developing countries and third world countries have a very limited ability to get involved in global science and engineering when it's paywalled.

- In fields like medicine especially, paywalls are literally preventing the public from knowing how to be healthy.

Have you considered that maybe the reason why for example, "The vast majority of all published papers is read only by the reviewers." is because it's not openly and freely published?

I suspect perhaps the reason you are being downvoted (on other sites presumably) is because most people think your view is wrong or unacceptable i.e. immoral. Have you considered that possibility?

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