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Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

nationalgeographic.com

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Re: Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

#41

Post by ftlio »

johnchristopher wrote: post #37
chronic7ui wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Antarctica melting? Yes. Is it bad? Yes. Are humans accelerating​ it? Yes. Is it bad for my kids and future generations? Yes. Does that mean I'm going to switch to an EV, start taking public transportation in Mountain View, or stop using disposable bags at While Foods? No. Scientists have a long way to convince the billions of people on Earth like me before anyone is going to meaningfully reduce climate change.

So, now that we are over the "there's no climate change" phase, the "humans aren't responsible" phase and the "it's not that bad, we'll adapt or there might be good things coming out of it" phase it is the "scientists are responsible because they couldn't convince me" phase. What a time to be alive.

That's one name for it. 'I still won't vote for taxes or meaningful legislation on the issue because they're just going to get it wrong anyway.' is the phase's actual name.

Re: Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

#42

Post by cmurf »

ftlio wrote: post #41
johnchristopher wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, now that we are over the "there's no climate change" phase, the "humans aren't responsible" phase and the "it's not that bad, we'll adapt or there might be good things coming out of it" phase it is the "scientists are responsible because they couldn't convince me" phase. What a time to be alive.

That's one name for it. 'I still won't vote for taxes or meaningful legislation on the issue because they're just going to get it wrong anyway.' is the phase's actual name.

We can trace the widespread notions in the Republican party that the government cannot ever do anything correctly, and should be feared when it tries, to this quote:

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help. - Ronald Reagan

No no, don't believe in auditing, and ethics, and holding officials accountable with voting, and when necessary prosecutions. Just be scared of the government, and withhold funding so it's small enough to drown in a bathtub. But today's Republicans miss his message (he'd be considered a liberal today, I think)

Now, so there will be no misunderstanding, it's not my intention to do away with government. It is rather to make it work--work with us, not over us; to stand by our side, not ride on our back. From Reagan's inaugural address.

Re: Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

#44

Post by Theodores »

chronic7ui wrote: post #14
vocatus_gate wrote: post #3

I just came back from 7 months on one of the U.S. research stations, doing network engineering and glacier search and rescue. It was pretty interesting to see how fast the glacier face the station was near was retreating each year. edit: did an AMA while there that hit the reddit front page https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/5656e1/iama_i_dont_ha...

Is Antarctica melting? Yes. Is it bad? Yes. Are humans accelerating​ it? Yes. Is it bad for my kids and future generations? Yes. Does that mean I'm going to switch to an EV, start taking public transportation in Mountain View, or stop using disposable bags at While Foods? No. Scientists have a long way to convince the billions of people on Earth like me before anyone is going to meaningfully reduce climate change.

Not really. The baby boomer generation are going to die off and take their miserly attitudes with them. There is no other option other than to move to a post-carbon economy and for it to be renewables all the way. You will die out and new people will come along with different energy demands. They might be happy to get about Dutch style, on a bicycle. To most Americans that mode of transport is unthinkable for things like shopping or bringing up a family, but the Dutch do it.

I believe there are plenty of people paving the way for our post-carbon world, building a new and clean world from the filth left behind by the baby boomer generation.

Currently millenials do not put 2 and 2 together when it comes to climate change and their personal habits of consumerism, we did better in the 1970's after the crisises of the time at turning lights off when not needed. But this time round we have people using sensors and things like LED lights to keep the energy consumption sensible.

The only way for countries like the UK to meet their emissions targets and air quality targets is to get rid of the targets (Brexit) or to get serious about electric cars. Right now one energy company is converting lamp posts to charging points, so soon on-street charging will become very easy. A small step but an important one as it makes the impossible possible and at affordable cost. So you might just get an EV because that is how it works and you just charge up every time you park next to a lamp post.

There are only four petrol stations inside the congestion charge zone in London, there used to be far more. Imagine a time when there are none and you have to go to a motorway to find petrol or diesel for your classic retro vehicle.

Even General Motors are taking EVs seriously.

As for the disposable bag, try visiting the UK. They went extinct when stops started charging for them. The other day I found a hoard of three in a drawer. In former times people would have small cupboards full of the things. It took a long time coming, but the end of the disposable free bag was survived by retailers and consumers alike.

I think that EV cars will be like flat screen televisions and ICE cars will be like CRT monitors in not too many years to come. We didn't initially get a better picture with flat screen displays but those richer colours did not save the CRT, even if there were no 'dead pixels'.

In a matter of time the batteries will be integrated into the frame or the wheels or even the furnishings and these EV cars will be a far simpler product than those ICE things. The supply chain will die out for ICE and this new post carbon world will start to happen. Watch and see.

Re: Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

#45

Post by wavefunction »

nonbel wrote: post #30

I've found the coverage of this Larsen C rift to be disquieting since I read that the people studying it don't link the event to climate change: >"The team say they have no evidence to link the growth of this rift, and the eventual calving, to climate change." https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170602112819.h... It seems that everyone in the media or commenting on the internet suddenly knows better than th…

All they said was that they don't have evidence for a link, which may be because there is no link, there is a link but they haven't found the evidence yet, or a link was never within the scope of their study.

You're basically claiming they found evidence disproving a link with the "don't link the event to climate change."

Re: Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

#46

Post by jtbayly »

wcoenen wrote: post #36
tmpdude01 wrote: post #11

In 2014 Antarctic sea ice reached a record maximum: https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/antarctic-sea-ice-reach... But now in 2017 we're talking about continent-wide collapse?

The way I understood it, the article is about glaciers and ice shelves, not about antarctic sea ice extent which is largely driven by wind patterns. The more northward winds, the more sea ice. Incidentally, antarctic sea ice extent did go from record highs 3 years ago to record lows this year. http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/16/world/antarctica-sea-ice-r...

Second paragraph from the 2015 study linked above makes clear it is talking about land, not sea ice:

"The research challenges the conclusions of other studies, including the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s (IPCC) 2013 report, which says that Antarctica is overall losing land ice."

Re: Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

#48

Post by CuriousSkeptic »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #33
celestialcheese wrote: post #9

Wow... just wow. I'm overwhelmingly under-learned on this topic, but from the sounds of scientists, shit is literally hitting the fan. What books and research in the last couple years are good for non-scientists about the effects of rising oceans on socio-economics and politics?

It will be hard to find anything that isn't exceedingly one-sided if socio-economics and politics are involved. One thing to remember when you read that stuff is that the poorest are the ones that suffer the most from the regulations we put in place. For example, I support taxation on any product or service with externalities where it's nearly impossible to price the damage done into the product naturally. Pollution…

Distributing the revenue from said taxes back as a public dividend should solve that problem nicely. Since we're all impacted by those externalities a public dividend is only fair. And since the distributed money compensate for increased costs the tax can be pretty high, and thus effective in directing money towards alternate solutions.

Re: Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

#49

Post by jhpriestley »

surferbayarea wrote: post #43

US leads the world in per capita emissions. And people on the coasts(ny/sf) are the worst offenders. Guess who will history hold responsible.

California and New York have the lowest per capita CO2 emissions except for DC according to https://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/state/analysis/

Wyoming, North Dakota have the most.

Re: Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

#50

Post by rayiner »

cmurf wrote: post #42
ftlio wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one name for it. 'I still won't vote for taxes or meaningful legislation on the issue because they're just going to get it wrong anyway.' is the phase's actual name.

We can trace the widespread notions in the Republican party that the government cannot ever do anything correctly, and should be feared when it tries, to this quote: The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help. - Ronald Reagan No no, don't believe in auditing, and ethics, and holding officials accountable with voting, and when necessary prosecutions. Just be sca…

The Republican Party capitalizes on that perception but doesn't create it. America's governments are remarkably inept at doing even basic things. I just got back from Tokyo, where my 45 minute train ride from the airport arrived downtown within a minute of schedule. Meanwhile, the D.C. metro segment of my commute runs at best 20% over scheduled time. That's despite being one of the most expensive systems in the world. So many things are like that. We spend more on education than almost anyone else for worse results.
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