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The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

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Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#81

Post by zurn »

Swizec wrote: post #33
bluedino wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the government issues me a free ID I don't have to carry it and I can tell anyone who asks that I am my brother

Except in most of Europe where not having ID if you are an adult is illegal. Not in the "We will go after you if you don't have ID" way but in the "If shit happens and you can't prove your identity you are in serious deep shit" Just like snow equipment is mandatory to have in your car but nobody cared until you cause an accident or traffic jam because you didn't put chains on.

Citation needed?

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#82

Post by Swizec »

zurn wrote: post #81
Swizec wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in most of Europe where not having ID if you are an adult is illegal. Not in the "We will go after you if you don't have ID" way but in the "If shit happens and you can't prove your identity you are in serious deep shit" Just like snow equipment is mandatory to have in your car but nobody cared until you cause an accident or traffic jam because you didn't put chains on.

Citation needed?

> According to a 1996 publication by Privacy International, around 100 countries had enacted laws making identity cards compulsory.[1] In these countries, the card must be shown on demand by authorised personnel under specified circumstances. In some countries alternative proof of identity, such as a driving licence is acceptable. Privacy International said that "virtually no common law country has a card".[1]

> The term "compulsory" may have different meanings and implications in different countries. Possession of a card may only become compulsory at a certain age. There may be a penalty for not carrying a card or other legally valid identification (a passport, for foreigners); in some cases a person may be detained until identity is proven. This way the police can identify fugitives

On the list are 14 out of 28 EU countries if my count is correct. And a few more European non-EU countries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_ca...

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#83

Post by Banthum »

Avshalom wrote: post #60
throwanem wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. This is why you find people of Christian faith volunteering to...you know what, never mind. I wish I lived in a world as simple as the one you seem to.

https://www.statnews.com/2017/03/03/roger-marshall-kansas-ob... >“Just like Jesus said, ‘The poor will always be with us,’” he said. “There is a group of people that just don’t want health care and aren’t going to take care of themselves.” >Pressed on that point, Marshall shrugged. No seriously, some people have a really fucked up reading of "the poor will always be with us" and some of those people are actually in c…

“There is a group of people that just don’t want health care and aren’t going to take care of themselves.”

I'm aware that this isn't a nice thing to say, but are you really disputing that the sentence stands alone as a fact?

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#84

Post by zurn »

Swizec wrote: post #82
zurn wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed?

> According to a 1996 publication by Privacy International, around 100 countries had enacted laws making identity cards compulsory.[1] In these countries, the card must be shown on demand by authorised personnel under specified circumstances. In some countries alternative proof of identity, such as a driving licence is acceptable. Privacy International said that "virtually no common law country has a card".[1] > The…

By that list, it does not sound like many EU countries require you to keep it with you with threat of penalty. Certainly very far from "most". Netherlands sounds like a strange exception to the rule with otherwise liberal society. Serbia is a relatively recent civil war zone so kind of understandable.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#85

Post by yellowapple »

maxerickson wrote: post #16
koolba wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably to avoid identity theft.

That is a reason for making the process rigorous. It isn't a reason that it should be byzantine or difficult.

Unfortunately, "rigorous" and "byzantine" tend to go hand-in-hand.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#86

Post by jacquesm »

zurn wrote: post #84
Swizec wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> According to a 1996 publication by Privacy International, around 100 countries had enacted laws making identity cards compulsory.[1] In these countries, the card must be shown on demand by authorised personnel under specified circumstances. In some countries alternative proof of identity, such as a driving licence is acceptable. Privacy International said that "virtually no common law country has a card".[1] > The…

By that list, it does not sound like many EU countries require you to keep it with you with threat of penalty. Certainly very far from "most". Netherlands sounds like a strange exception to the rule with otherwise liberal society. Serbia is a relatively recent civil war zone so kind of understandable.

NL is shameful in this respect. What's even worse is that the general public totally bought the line that this would reduce crime. Instead, people are now somewhat routinely booked for not being able to identify themselves even though that's the only thing they are doing wrong at that moment.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#87

Post by maxerickson »

yellowapple wrote: post #85
maxerickson wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a reason for making the process rigorous. It isn't a reason that it should be byzantine or difficult.

Unfortunately, "rigorous" and "byzantine" tend to go hand-in-hand.

How do you figure that?

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#88

Post by [deleted] »

jacquesm wrote: post #79
koolba wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointing out facts that would have prevented the situation isn't victim blaming. It's being truthful. The alternative is to accept that there is no personal responsibility (which I reject). As to the process of reestablishing a new set of identity docs. It's clearly overly onerous and just like everything else in life, even more so when you're poor. The decent thing to do for the government isn't just to make the edg…

I sincerely hope that you will never be in a position to realize just how your comment comes across to me. At a guess you're young, well educated and compared to the lady in the article filthy rich. Your 'personal responsibility' works well for you given your background and status in life. But it's an easy argument to make when the results are not your problem . It does handily allow you to ignore the fate of those t…

[deleted]

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#89

Post by koolba »

jacquesm wrote: post #79
koolba wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointing out facts that would have prevented the situation isn't victim blaming. It's being truthful. The alternative is to accept that there is no personal responsibility (which I reject). As to the process of reestablishing a new set of identity docs. It's clearly overly onerous and just like everything else in life, even more so when you're poor. The decent thing to do for the government isn't just to make the edg…

I sincerely hope that you will never be in a position to realize just how your comment comes across to me. At a guess you're young, well educated and compared to the lady in the article filthy rich. Your 'personal responsibility' works well for you given your background and status in life. But it's an easy argument to make when the results are not your problem . It does handily allow you to ignore the fate of those t…

> I sincerely hope that you will never be in a position to realize just how your comment comes across to me.

Am I to interpret that as a threat, a la "If you said that to my face and I'd punch you in yours!"?

If so, I'd expect more from what I presume to be a grown man.

> At a guess you're young, well educated and compared to the lady in the article filthy rich.

In the interests of preserving pseudo anonymity I won't confirm or deny any of those guesses.

The addition of "filthy" in the third piece of that does show more than a hint of inherent bias though. There's nothing virtuous or vile in being poor or rich, and discounting someone's opinions based on your presumptions of their economic status can only end badly.

> Your 'personal responsibility' works well for you given your background and status in life. But it's an easy argument to make when the results are not your problem. It does handily allow you to ignore the fate of those that are not as fortunate as you are, after all, if they had taken their responsibilities seriously then they would have nothing to complain about, case closed.

Not once did I say the situation is not unfortunate nor did I say things should be this difficult. I merely pointed out that it could also have been avoided and she had ample opportunity to do so.

If resources are to be dedicated to helping out someone in this situation (which they should!), then they should also be dedicated to preventing it in the first place. A key part of that is acknowledging the personal responsibility component. Otherwise you're stuck repeatedly curing situations that could have otherwise been prevented.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#90

Post by jacquesm »

koolba wrote: post #89
jacquesm wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sincerely hope that you will never be in a position to realize just how your comment comes across to me. At a guess you're young, well educated and compared to the lady in the article filthy rich. Your 'personal responsibility' works well for you given your background and status in life. But it's an easy argument to make when the results are not your problem . It does handily allow you to ignore the fate of those t…

> I sincerely hope that you will never be in a position to realize just how your comment comes across to me. Am I to interpret that as a threat, a la "If you said that to my face and I'd punch you in yours!" ? If so, I'd expect more from what I presume to be a grown man. > At a guess you're young, well educated and compared to the lady in the article filthy rich. In the interests of preserving pseudo anonymity I won'…

> Am I to interpret that as a threat, a la "If you said that to my face and I'd punch you in yours!"?

> If so, I'd expect more from what I presume to be a grown man.

Strawman ignored.

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