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The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

washingtonpost.com

21–30 of 90 posts

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#21
post #2

Got to keep those poor people away from the polls. It's interesting how the government here - NL - makes it mandatory for those over 14 to have a photo ID of sorts at all times and charges money for those. A government issued ID should be free of charge, especially if it is required by the government to have one, and they set the prices. That's still a lot better than the situation described in the article which seem…

Malice seems unlikely. There has to be some way to prove your identity, and people have tried to impersonate others. Is there a way to offer that kind of system while avoiding the concerns about identity theft? EDIT: After thinking it over, I guess identity theft isn't a big concern. It seems pretty unlikely that someone would actively exploit this system to get someone's ID, then their birth certificate, then someho…

> Is there a way to offer that kind of system while avoiding the concerns about identity theft?

I know there are other cases where you must prove your identity, but in the case of voter impersonation fraud, to pull that off at a scale large enough to affect a major election requires a massive logistical effort. You must:

* Obtain the registered voter rolls for every polling place. This is the easy part.

* Know a priori which registered voters will and won't vote on election day. Why? Because if you show up and say you're John Doe, and the polling place has marked that John Doe has already voted, you won't get to vote. If that happens enough times—especially if it happens to the real John Doe, after a fake John Doe voted on his behalf—alarm bells are raised.

* Shuttle your team of voter impersonators across the city or county or whatever N times so that they can each fraudulently vote enough to tip the election in your favor.

This enormous scope is why almost all known cases of voter impersonation fraud are in elections for offices like "dog catcher" in a rural town: the scale is small enough that you can tip an election with a handful of your closest friends, and you might also know a corresponding handful of registered voters around town who have said they're not planning to vote. Laws that require a photo ID to vote are malicious at worst, and wrongheaded and pointless at best.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#22
post #9
post #2

Got to keep those poor people away from the polls. It's interesting how the government here - NL - makes it mandatory for those over 14 to have a photo ID of sorts at all times and charges money for those. A government issued ID should be free of charge, especially if it is required by the government to have one, and they set the prices. That's still a lot better than the situation described in the article which seem…

>"engineered to simply keep people in the hole once they through misfortune or carelessness slip up" This seems like a pretty extraordinary claim made pretty casually. What would motivate someone to intentionally prevent poor people from helping themselves? It seems much more likely a case of straightforward government dysfunction enabled by all the usual factors that make the government suck at accomplishing things.…

> If the government ID infrastructure ran as well as Facebook's ad targeting department, we would have no problems of this kind whatsoever.

You might want to rethink that statement. I suspect that the government ID infrastructure works flawlessly for about 99.9% of users. The FB ad infrastructure does not work that well.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#24
post #2

Got to keep those poor people away from the polls. It's interesting how the government here - NL - makes it mandatory for those over 14 to have a photo ID of sorts at all times and charges money for those. A government issued ID should be free of charge, especially if it is required by the government to have one, and they set the prices. That's still a lot better than the situation described in the article which seem…

> the situation described in the article which seems to be engineered to simply keep people in the hole once they through misfortune or carelessness slip up. It's sad too that it should come to volunteers to correct such situations, you'd think that the government would really like its citizens to be able to take part in society rather than to be pushed even further into the fringes.

You'll find that Americans really believe in personal responsibility to an absurd extent. And if you're irresponsible enough to lose all your ID (forget why, who cares?) then you clearly deserve to die in a ditch somewhere. It's a brutal philosophy that permeates everything about the country.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Malice seems unlikely. There has to be some way to prove your identity, and people have tried to impersonate others. Is there a way to offer that kind of system while avoiding the concerns about identity theft? EDIT: After thinking it over, I guess identity theft isn't a big concern. It seems pretty unlikely that someone would actively exploit this system to get someone's ID, then their birth certificate, then someho…

> Malice seems unlikely. On the contrary, I suspect that is the most likely explanation. See, if there were any other explanation then the government would go out of its way to provide people without identification with the right identification. > There has to be some way to prove your identity There are many ways, for instance in some countries several citizens themselves in the possession of valid identification go…

Even if the government issues me a free ID I don't have to carry it and I can tell anyone who asks that I am my brother

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Malice seems unlikely. On the contrary, I suspect that is the most likely explanation. See, if there were any other explanation then the government would go out of its way to provide people without identification with the right identification. > There has to be some way to prove your identity There are many ways, for instance in some countries several citizens themselves in the possession of valid identification go…

Even if the government issues me a free ID I don't have to carry it and I can tell anyone who asks that I am my brother

And I could say I am you. That wouldn't make it true though.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#28

I always wondered how people get IDs if: 1) they never got one while under an age when someone else could vouch for them, and 2) they didn't have any of the documents needed to an ID because to get those documents, you need an ID.

One example: in Canada you get your house doctor and the principal of the school you went to as a kid to give you a letter that verifies your identity.

Other options are several people that themselves have valid ID and you go before a judge and they swear you are you.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#29
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social security cards and birth certificates do not expire. Drivers licenses do expire, generally at 4-6 year time frames. Assuming you're still at the same address (which she was), most states allow one to renew it through the mail. Checking a box, signing a card, and paying a nominal fee once every four years does not seem particularly onerous to me. Though if it were up to me the fee would be entirely eliminated.

Assuming you're still at the same address (which she was) She was evicted from her previous address!

And the older comment by that same user already acknowledges that.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#30
I've volunteered on homelessness issues over the past few years, and many of my friends are homeless or have been homeless in recent memory. This is one of the most frustrating and pointlessly cruel aspects of the society we've built (among many frustrating and pointlessly cruel aspects).

I can sum up just how evil it is with one anecdote:

One night a few years ago, I got a frantic message from a friend on facebook, something along the lines of, "Look at X's wall. Nobody has been able to reach them." So, I looked at X's wall, and the last post looked very much like a suicide note. Brief and somewhat cryptic, but given the circumstances of X's life and some of the things they'd said and done in recent weeks made it pretty worrying.

X, at that time, had been homeless for some time, off and on for years. They'd been couchsurfing but felt like they'd worn out their welcome and didn't want to be a bother. They'd been kicked out of their parents' house when they were younger because they were gay. They were literally terrified of their parents, and never want contact with them again. So, they had no contact with most of their family, and the one relative who hadn't disowned them was a grandparent without the resources to do much, even if anyone knew how to reach them. Even calling the police was a questionable choice (which we ended up not doing), because they had warrants, and had traumatic interactions with police in recent months.

X had been in public housing for a short time a couple years before, but had been kicked out because their partner visited too often and stayed overnight too many times (only married couples can do that, you see, and only in designated housing), and due to some "behavioral issues" that stemmed from X being on the autism spectrum (another reason to not call police) and the rules of public housing being unforgiving. I've visited other folks in the same building, and the rules are absurd. It's like a low-security prison; visitors have to check-in/out, there is a curfew, etc.

Long story short, this was someone who's had a lot of setbacks in life, and that night they just couldn't see a way forward. But, the most tremendously horrific thing about it, to me, was that it mostly boiled down to no ID and no clear path to get them an ID. Without ID, no job. Without ID, no housing (public or otherwise). Without ID, no future. The steps to getting an ID are crazy difficult for a homeless person with no family ties and no records available.

One of their exes found them a couple hours after our search started, and we were able to get them committed voluntarily to a psych hospital while we sorted out what they'd find when they got out.

When a few people stepped up to help get the ID sorted, and some other folks raised enough money from friends to cover their rent in co-op housing for a few months, they were able to get back on their feet. They're holding down a job, paying their own rent and expenses, and have been doing well for a couple years now. But, it took a fucking team to get the ID problem solved, and that's ridiculous.

If you ever go to any organization that provides services to the homeless, you'll find that getting ID is one of their most used services. And, also a challenging one in many cases. It's just one that nobody who's never lived it really ever thinks about. But, think about having to keep all of your paperwork on your person or being always at risk of losing it. That's the situation homeless folks are in.

This is further complicated by police who arrest homeless folks on spurious charges and make them leave their things behind, where they'll be stolen or thrown away before they're able to return. A life of total impermanence is just unimaginably difficult.

I've rambled a lot here, but it's easy for me to get riled up on this issue. Knowing what I know, and having seen what I've seen, it'd be very easy to convince me that our system is built to intentionally destroy the lives of a few at the bottom, and make it all but impossible for them to climb out, all while people demonize the homeless as being a nuisance that should be pushed out of cities (San Francisco, Austin, Portland, Los Angeles, liberal cities, I'm looking at you, too).

It's all inflicted via mostly tiny cuts, that don't look like a big deal if you've got a house, a job, an ID, a family, a filing cabinet with all of your records, a bank account, a credit card for emergencies, etc. Even tiny things can spiral into a disaster quickly for the very poor.

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