Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 90 posts

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#11

Post by jacquesm »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #5
jacquesm wrote: post #2

Got to keep those poor people away from the polls. It's interesting how the government here - NL - makes it mandatory for those over 14 to have a photo ID of sorts at all times and charges money for those. A government issued ID should be free of charge, especially if it is required by the government to have one, and they set the prices. That's still a lot better than the situation described in the article which seem…

Malice seems unlikely. There has to be some way to prove your identity, and people have tried to impersonate others. Is there a way to offer that kind of system while avoiding the concerns about identity theft? EDIT: After thinking it over, I guess identity theft isn't a big concern. It seems pretty unlikely that someone would actively exploit this system to get someone's ID, then their birth certificate, then someho…

> Malice seems unlikely.

On the contrary, I suspect that is the most likely explanation. See, if there were any other explanation then the government would go out of its way to provide people without identification with the right identification.

> There has to be some way to prove your identity

There are many ways, for instance in some countries several citizens themselves in the possession of valid identification go together with you before a judge and swear on the penalty of perjury that you are who you say you are.

> and people have tried to impersonate others.

Yes, and guess what that valid ID is meant to reduce?

> Is there a way to offer that kind of system while avoiding the concerns about identity theft?

Well, given that we have fingerprinting and biometric information these days it is hard to think of what else - short of DNA - we could give up to offer 'that kind of system' but don't worry, it will still happen and probably in your lifetime.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#12

Post by koolba »

SimbaOnSteroids wrote: post #6
koolba wrote: post #3

So she didn't have any opportunity over the forty years prior to secure any of those documents? Having to deal with something like this at the same time as being evicted and losing your mother is very sad, but that's not an excuse. It's a human interest story.

Mate ID's expire every 6 years. Expired ID's are not valid ID's.

Social security cards and birth certificates do not expire.

Drivers licenses do expire, generally at 4-6 year time frames. Assuming you're still at the same address (which she was), most states allow one to renew it through the mail.

Checking a box, signing a card, and paying a nominal fee once every four years does not seem particularly onerous to me. Though if it were up to me the fee would be entirely eliminated.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#13

Post by koolba »

maxerickson wrote: post #7
koolba wrote: post #3

So she didn't have any opportunity over the forty years prior to secure any of those documents? Having to deal with something like this at the same time as being evicted and losing your mother is very sad, but that's not an excuse. It's a human interest story.

Her Social Security card and birth certificate were among the things lost that day. What reasons are there for the system to be structured such that obtaining an ID is difficult?

Probably to avoid identity theft.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#14

Post by jacquesm »

Banthum wrote: post #9
jacquesm wrote: post #2

Got to keep those poor people away from the polls. It's interesting how the government here - NL - makes it mandatory for those over 14 to have a photo ID of sorts at all times and charges money for those. A government issued ID should be free of charge, especially if it is required by the government to have one, and they set the prices. That's still a lot better than the situation described in the article which seem…

>"engineered to simply keep people in the hole once they through misfortune or carelessness slip up" This seems like a pretty extraordinary claim made pretty casually. What would motivate someone to intentionally prevent poor people from helping themselves? It seems much more likely a case of straightforward government dysfunction enabled by all the usual factors that make the government suck at accomplishing things.…

> What would motivate someone to intentionally prevent poor people from helping themselves?

Less social security to be paid out.

Once homeless the way back is super hard, and to receive social security you have to have a registered address and to have a registered address you need ID.

So good luck reversing that.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#15

Post by maxerickson »

koolba wrote: post #12
SimbaOnSteroids wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mate ID's expire every 6 years. Expired ID's are not valid ID's.

Social security cards and birth certificates do not expire. Drivers licenses do expire, generally at 4-6 year time frames. Assuming you're still at the same address (which she was), most states allow one to renew it through the mail. Checking a box, signing a card, and paying a nominal fee once every four years does not seem particularly onerous to me. Though if it were up to me the fee would be entirely eliminated.

Assuming you're still at the same address (which she was)

She was evicted from her previous address!

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#16

Post by maxerickson »

koolba wrote: post #13
maxerickson wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her Social Security card and birth certificate were among the things lost that day. What reasons are there for the system to be structured such that obtaining an ID is difficult?

Probably to avoid identity theft.

That is a reason for making the process rigorous.

It isn't a reason that it should be byzantine or difficult.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#17

Post by SimbaOnSteroids »

koolba wrote: post #12
SimbaOnSteroids wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mate ID's expire every 6 years. Expired ID's are not valid ID's.

Social security cards and birth certificates do not expire. Drivers licenses do expire, generally at 4-6 year time frames. Assuming you're still at the same address (which she was), most states allow one to renew it through the mail. Checking a box, signing a card, and paying a nominal fee once every four years does not seem particularly onerous to me. Though if it were up to me the fee would be entirely eliminated.

Social security cards and birth certificates are not a form of photo ID. Furthermore renewing an ID costs $30 which is a roundabout way of instituting a poll tax.

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#18

Post by jacquesm »

koolba wrote: post #3

So she didn't have any opportunity over the forty years prior to secure any of those documents? Having to deal with something like this at the same time as being evicted and losing your mother is very sad, but that's not an excuse. It's a human interest story.

> Having to deal with something like this at the same time as being evicted and losing your mother is very sad, but that's not an excuse.

It's the perfect excuse. Once you have no registered address it is only a matter of time before you gain the accumulated 'benefits' that come with having no status at all. Essentially you become an un-person, and your life is just about forfeit. [1]

I take it that you have not experienced homelessness?

> It's a human interest story.

Yes, indeed. So take an interest in how these situations could be avoided rather than blaming the victims of the system, it should be fairly obvious that she's making a significant effort to regain her status as a documented citizen.

Also note how IDs tend to expire and that if you have no registered address you may not be able to apply for a new ID.

[1] http://forum.schizophrenia.com/t/homeless-person-has-a-life-...

Re: The cruel Catch-22 of being poor with no ID

#20

Post by sillysaurus3 »

jacquesm wrote: post #11
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Malice seems unlikely. There has to be some way to prove your identity, and people have tried to impersonate others. Is there a way to offer that kind of system while avoiding the concerns about identity theft? EDIT: After thinking it over, I guess identity theft isn't a big concern. It seems pretty unlikely that someone would actively exploit this system to get someone's ID, then their birth certificate, then someho…

> Malice seems unlikely. On the contrary, I suspect that is the most likely explanation. See, if there were any other explanation then the government would go out of its way to provide people without identification with the right identification. > There has to be some way to prove your identity There are many ways, for instance in some countries several citizens themselves in the possession of valid identification go…

There are many ways, for instance in some countries several citizens themselves in the possession of valid identification go together with you before a judge and swear on the penalty of perjury that you are who you say you are.

I like that approach. I wonder if there's some way to campaign for it here in the US.

It seems more likely that the lack of this system is just what you get with lowest-common-denominator governance, so there are probably ways to change it for the better. If we could think of a way to add economic incentives to implement it, then it might have a chance.

Post reply on HN