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America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

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Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#61

Post by gruturo »

kemiller2002 wrote: post #4
gruturo wrote: post #2

This, if correctly publicized, would be the best motivation in getting huge amounts of people to stop. Think of a slogan like "Only the poor still smoke" or "it's what losers do" and how it would impact people. Suddenly you'd be embarrassed of being seen smoking.

I don't think so. You are correct that there are a large number of people who don't want the social stigma of being poor etc., but for many they see it as one of the few pleasures they can still have. To these people, they smoke, most of their friends and family smoke, and life is a struggle on a day to day basis. To them calling them a loser doesn't shame them, it just makes them more angry towards you.

(Mis-)Quoting John Steinbeck, "the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires".

This can be a powerful driver. And if it gets people to stop smoking, which is a devastatingly unhealthy habit, well, I'm ok with that.

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#62

Post by jacquesm »

ryan606 wrote: post #56

I was able to quit my 1/2 pack a day addiction four years ago after 15+ years, but it was challenging. Smoking was expensive (four years ago: 4 packs a week = $40), but quitting smoking was even more expensive. In addition to the expense of Chantix, I also started surfing Amazon for things to reward myself instead of going outside for a smoke break. So it was probably $100 - $200 a week. Now nicotine-free for 4+ year…

The long term rewards are the ones that matter most. Congratulations!

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#63

Post by jacquesm »

thinkfurther wrote: post #55
anovikov wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it will help a lot for the remaining ~10% or so of middle class people who smoke, to quit.

I once spent a night in the home of an elderly very poor couple on Tenerife, because they offered some sort of service where the husband would fetch people from the ferry, and bring them to the airport the next day. They were so kind. He was near mentally challenged, a super sweet guy working as a garbage man there, so they could just barely afford it. They lived there because she had horrible arthritis and the clima…

> If I could make one invention, it would be something that swaps the brains of humans around every 5 years, completely randomly. People would sober up rather quickly I'm sure.

A variation on that is that the world where you have no control over who you will be in it is the world that you should strive to create.

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#64

Post by ythn »

davidf18 wrote: post #53

As of roughly 5 or more years ago, half of tobacco consumed in the US is by people who are mentally ill and/or substance abusers. For example, people with Schizophrenia are heavy smokers and 90% smoke. Those with clinical depression 60%. They are self-medicating for their underlying illness. We need to ensure that they are getting proper treatment. Income Disparities in Absolute Cardiovascular Risk and Cardiovascular…

They are self medicating because there is no proper treatment. We can roll the dice with treating mental illness, but it's not very consistent or reliable and often produces undesirable side effects. At least, that's what I've seen when family members have gone to psychiatrists to treat various things.

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#65

Post by chillingeffect »

sigi45 wrote: post #43
donatj wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been studies and the vast majority of millionaires in the United States are still self made, whereas Europe is largely old money.

And there is another study saying this is bullshit and rich people tend to be rich and keep it in there familie in US as well.

I think you and parent are right...

It's just easiest to become self-made after going to business school funded by parents, receiving cars from parents, wedding funding by parents, moving into a house with a down payment in cash split by both parents, receiving daycare from 2-4 grandparents, then career advice from successful parents in the same industry.

This describes lots of people around me. Self-made... but not from the ghetto or nothing, from fans all on sides feeding the flames.

Not that I think it's wrong or should be changed overnight, but I wish there were some ways to help people without doing everything for them.

For example, one person in my family had a screwed up life. A group of us got together to buy this person a basic car. That transportation changed their whole life- it was like a keystone that got them self-sufficient. After begrudgingly paying their rent for many months, the one-time car cost wise much wiser.

I wish that could be replicated. E.g. public transport could/should have the same effect, but it's such a convenient income source, it just gets opportunistically priced upwards...

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#66

Post by gruturo »

almonj wrote: post #28
gruturo wrote: post #2

This, if correctly publicized, would be the best motivation in getting huge amounts of people to stop. Think of a slogan like "Only the poor still smoke" or "it's what losers do" and how it would impact people. Suddenly you'd be embarrassed of being seen smoking.

Prohibition makes things edgier and cooler, it only makes people want to do it more. Pretty sure there are places that legalized drugs and usage rates went down.

But this isn't prohibition - tobacco products are still for sale (except to minors, where the mechanism you mention definitely is at play).

It's just building a social stigma about the use of the product - which happens to be based on facts.

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#67

Post by hl5 »

anovikov wrote: post #18
expenses wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a joke right? You don't _actually_ believe that's how poverty works?

I may be missing something on a larger scale, but that is definitely true about all poor people i know (for almost all of them, i see an easy way how they can quit poverty in a few years, apart from a couple very sad examples), and every rich person i know, too (while again, it may be just my perspective: i don't come from a rich family so i don't know anyone who was born rich). It doesn't work as easy for older poor…

Perhaps you could share your easy three year get out of poverty plan with the poor people you know and gain an informed perspective on your position.

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#68

Post by anovikov »

donatj wrote: post #35
gue5t wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whereas rich are rich because their parents were rich.

There have been studies and the vast majority of millionaires in the United States are still self made, whereas Europe is largely old money.

That is true only for UK. Simply because in rest of EU there is no way to be 'old money' due to world wars and/or Communism where old money lost everything.

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#69

Post by JumpCrisscross »

AlexandrB wrote: post #51
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're both talking in extremes. There is a lot of inherited wealth in the developed world [1]. There is also a relationship between "marshmallow test" impulsiveness and peoples' tendency to squander the opportunities their life presents them [2]. The relative balance between these factors is debatable. Their presence is more difficult to dismiss. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-23/how-to-st... [2…

Read your own damn references [1] before postulating how the poor are poor because they have no self-control and not the other way around: > A 2012 study at the University of Rochester (with a smaller N= 28) altered the experiment by dividing children into two groups: one group was given a broken promise before the marshmallow test was conducted (the unreliable tester group), and the second group had a fulfilled prom…

There are five follow-up studies in the Wikipedia section you cite [1]:

A 1998 study "showed that 'preschool children who delayed gratification longer in the self-imposed delay paradigm, were described more than 10 years later by their parents as adolescents who were significantly more competent.'" A 1990 study "showed that the ability to delay gratification also correlated with higher SAT scores." A 2006 study used a cookie instead of a marshmallow. "A 2011 brain imaging study of a sample from the original Stanford participants when they reached mid-life showed key differences between those with high delay times and those with low delay times in two areas: the prefrontal cortex (more active in high delayers) and the ventral striatum (an area linked to addictions) when they were trying to control their responses to alluring temptations."

You only quote the 2012 study (N=28). It's a small study, though it raises an interesting point around the direction of the relationship. It doesn't undermine that there are individual and group factors at play with inequality. Any explanation grandly defaulting to one is dishonest.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experimen...

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#70

Post by mabbo »

davidf18 wrote: post #53

As of roughly 5 or more years ago, half of tobacco consumed in the US is by people who are mentally ill and/or substance abusers. For example, people with Schizophrenia are heavy smokers and 90% smoke. Those with clinical depression 60%. They are self-medicating for their underlying illness. We need to ensure that they are getting proper treatment. Income Disparities in Absolute Cardiovascular Risk and Cardiovascular…

> Raising the cost of tobacco has over half the effect of getting people to quit or never start. Also very important is banning smoking in public places and hard-hitting, scary, advertisements spending about $1 to $2 per capita. Clinical interventions such as doctors speaking with patients about quitting, providing nicotine replacement therapy, and telephone counseling support are also important. But most of the gains are from the public policy initiatives.

Statistically, empirically, which of those things actually work? I've heard time and time again that scary ads don't seem to do a damn thing, while raising prices actually seems to have an overly large impact.

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