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I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

theguardian.com

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Re: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#231

Post by BjoernKW »

planteen wrote: post #189
jernfrost wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am Norwegian, so I thought I'd add a few points, which I think greatly influence the difference. 1) Prison guard education is just a few weeks in the US to my knowledge. In Norway it is a 3 year college education, where you learn about mental illness, why people become criminals, how to rehabilitate people etc. The prison guard job in Norway, is by American standards more like a social worker. Guards spend a lot of…

> Christianity is quite focused on the idea of good and evil. Norse mythology was never like that. It's interesting you say that. My only exposure to sagas was from reading Beowulf in school, which is a canonical example for the theme of "good vs. evil".

First of all, Beowulf - at least the written records we have of the poem - is decidedly Christian. It was supposedly written by a literate monk several centuries after Norway had been christianised.

It also isn't necessarily about good vs evil but indeed about order vs. chaos. Grendel's misdeed is not that he attacks and slaughters good and righteous men ,it is that while doing so he violates the sacred law of hospitality by attacking the king's great hall. In doing so Grendel flouts the 'natural' order and therefore can be seen as an embodiment of chaos rather than pure evil.

Re: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#232

Post by zer0tonin »

xaqfox wrote: post #144
zer0tonin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-managed communes.

We tried that with 50 independent self-managed communes, but the central commune still usurped or were gifted most of their powers and responsibilities. What would be different this time around?

Pretending that the US' states were once self-managed communes is simply dishonest.

Re: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#233

Post by timwaagh »

jernfrost wrote: post #84
arcticbull wrote: post #7

Honestly, I find the US prison system absolutely horrifying in all respects. As satisfying as it may be for victims to feel the person that did something to them is 'gone' they will eventually be let out, and when they do I want them to be ready to integrate with society. Recidivism rates in the US show it is objectively not working, with state prisons leaving inmates to re-offend 76% of the time. [1] In Norway, much…

I am Norwegian, so I thought I'd add a few points, which I think greatly influence the difference. 1) Prison guard education is just a few weeks in the US to my knowledge. In Norway it is a 3 year college education, where you learn about mental illness, why people become criminals, how to rehabilitate people etc. The prison guard job in Norway, is by American standards more like a social worker. Guards spend a lot of…

yet the norwegian prison system also has its problems. especially with regards to its 'hotel prisons' being antisocial and isolating compared to other kinds of prisons. this article is on solitary confinement. norwegians have something to learn here as well.

Re: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#234

Post by Ntrails »

cuckcuckspruce wrote: post #186
loa_in_ wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have missed the part when he writes about high penalization of recidivism.

Penalties would only be levied after an inmate actually got out of prison, and there is ample time for the prison to use the inmate for slave labor to more than offset whatever penalties you set. Also expect for the corrections officers unions and police and sheriffs groups to start lobbying for mandatory life sentences because if there's one way to prevent recidivism it's to never actually release the prisoner.

Offending in prison to cause an additional sentence is arguably re-offending and can be treated as such.

I suspect you want to reward prisons for success rather than penalise for failure to re-habilitate. However frankly I also suspect there are actual experts in the field who should design the structure. The issue is that there is no political incentive in the States to do so.

Re: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#235

Post by humanrebar »

keithnz wrote: post #192
humanrebar wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also bad understanding of Christian theology. > Christianity is quite focused on the idea of good and evil. No, it's mostly focused on the contrast between being a follower of Christ or not. To that end, the character of God and Jesus are elaborated on at length. So subjects like "good" and "evil" come up as a part of that. Yes, Christ is described as being intrinsically good, but the end goal isn't to: * do goo…

It really doesn't matter what the "theology" is, or what academically people may understand it to be, it's how it manifests.

The argument was that the manifestation follows from the theology. I'm arguing that if the premises are true (culture follows from theology; culture and laws reflect that), then the originating philosophy (centered around good vs. evil) is something other than Christian theology.

Re: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#236

Post by LordKano »

hellcow wrote: post #42
bmmayer1 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fewer than 10% of prisoners are held in private prisons, so how are private prisons the 'central problem' with the US prison system?

You misunderstood my point. Both government-run and privately owned prisons are paid (or funded) based on how many inmates they have in custody. I'm suggesting that private prisons could be solution to the problem if we change their incentive structure.

Overall, I agree with you. Mass incarceration is largely about money.

Also, prisoners count towards the population of where the prison is located at census time. It allows mostly white, rural locations to increase their minority representation at census time, that's the kind of thing that's taken into consideration when government assistance is being handed out.

Additionally, this can help when apportioning congressional districts.

Hundreds or thousands of residents who can't vote are a great reward for congresspersons who can bring new prisons to their districts.

Re: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#237

Post by pillowkusis »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #37
pillowkusis wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the challenge is that literally nobody is incentivized to make changes to this system. the situation is really bad for politicians. A politican voting to reform a clearly broken prison system faces tons of risks to their career. Even one wrong vote for improving the prison system will get you labeled as "soft on crime," a dangerous liability for Democrats and nearly a death sentence for Republicans. Every change you…

> A politican voting to reform a clearly broken prison system faces tons of risks to their career. Can you say more about this? It sounds like you think that's normal in your community, to think that way. That's not how I hear the people around me talking about prison. I think most of us would support a candidate who talked about rehabilitation. I worry that by trotting out this old meme as if it were an permanent fi…

Most of the people I know aren't swayed by the "tough on crime" narrative. Certainly not me. But then again, I live in a techno-liberal-intellectual bubble. I believe this "punish those who do wrong" mentality (which is understandable on the face of it) is definitely built into the conservative wing of American politics.

Public opinion is swayed at a very superficial level. Emotional stories about convicts going free or people getting killed are always going to have a more substantial impact. Especially compared to mundane stores on successful prison reform -- 10% shorter prison sentences? 5% higher rehab rate? This guy who murdered people has a stable construction job now? Ignore the ideology, I think the optics of prison reform give us this unequal incentive structure.

Re: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#238

Post by delazeur »

wolfhumble wrote: post #221
jernfrost wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am Norwegian, so I thought I'd add a few points, which I think greatly influence the difference. 1) Prison guard education is just a few weeks in the US to my knowledge. In Norway it is a 3 year college education, where you learn about mental illness, why people become criminals, how to rehabilitate people etc. The prison guard job in Norway, is by American standards more like a social worker. Guards spend a lot of…

> I don't know why it is like that, but perhaps a reason is that Viking culture was very revenge and honor based. But this mentality was destroying society so authorities worked hard for hundreds of years to change this mentality. Or maybe it really sprung out of the Christian influence that came after the Viking culture, with teachings like: "Love your enemies" [Matthew 5:44 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s…

If that was true, we would expect the American Bible Belt to have some of the cushiest prisons in the developed world.

Re: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#239

Post by aaron_m04 »

pnathan wrote: post #94
hellcow wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right. Looking for a solution here, the central problem with the US prison system seems to be the incentive structure. Private prisons are paid based on how many inmates they have. Prisons are therefore incentivized to keep people as long as possible, and ensure that if a convict is ever released, that person commits another crime quickly and winds up back in prison. Instead, what if the state paid…

Private prisons have serious issues, but public ones have issues as well; often they are underfunded, which allowed the private company world to get involved to offer a service for cheaper costs. I would suggest the solution is properly around the question of the willingness of the US taxpayer to adequately fund the government services.

US taxpayer here. I'm happy to fund prisoner rehabilitation, but I can't fund that without also funding an out of control military and a war on drugs. So, as a whole, I try to avoid taxes wherever I legally can.

Re: I spent 29 years in solitary confinement (2010)

#240

Post by DennisP »

dragonwriter wrote: post #188
DennisP wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Constitution isn't just a historical document, it's the law. It's certainly open to change by the will of the people, and it defines a process for doing so, which has been used seventeen times. It's not the only law we interpret this way, considering the intent of the people who created it; courts do the same with laws passed by Congress.

> The Constitution isn't just a historical document, it's the law. It's certainly open to change by the will of the people, and it defines a process for doing so, which has been used seventeen times. Either 27 or 18, depending on whether you count the simultaneous ratification of the first 10 amendments as one use of the Amendment process or 10 separate, parallel uses. The only way I can remotely see that gets to 17…

I counted the Bill of Rights as zero, because I was thinking it didn't go through the normal amendment process, and was enacted at the same time as the Constitution itself. I just skimmed wikipedia and it looks like I was wrong about that.

I had a funny feeling I was going to learn something when I posted my comment :)

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