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Hard Questions: How We Counter Terrorism

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Re: Hard Questions: How We Counter Terrorism

#51

Communicate. Really, "terrorists" usually have the same goals as "we" do: peace, respect, safety, prosperity. If we stopped pretending that "we" are right and "they" are wrong, the problem might go away in the long run. Note that I do not approve of the terrorist approach to communication but, maybe, they just have no other way of making themselves heard, so if we listened, they might start talking instead of bombing…

Yes, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter... but I believe you are wrong when you make a very broad statement saying, 'usually have the same goals as "we" do: peace, respect, safety, prosperity.'

Let me give a specific example, the Islamist terrorists who follow the Wahhabism Islamic doctrine, the very same doctrine of Da’ish (ISIS). They have no respect for Kafir, the Arabic term for "unbeliever", or "disbeliever". The term itself alludes to a person who rejects or disbelieves in Allah and the teachings of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad, and denies the dominion and authority of Allah; or otherwise does not heed the beliefs and prescriptions held by the religion of Islam.

Indeed Kafir are deeply loathed by Allah with specific passages of the Qur'an that would amount to what we in modern times would categorize as hate speech: 2:10, 2:99, 2:171, 3:73, 3:28, 6:106, 8:55, 9:28, 48:29. These passages specifically refute your argument regarding a mutual goal of respect.

I could go further arguing "peace" with Kafir cannot exist in the face of jihad, for example 8:12: "I will instill terror into the hearts of Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them".

Sadly I could go on but I think my point is made.

The root of your argument is cultural relativism, and the fallacy that all culture is equivalent. Some cultures are superior to others if we compare merit and achievement. For example, when faced with the decision to live under a secular state (where there is a separation of religion and government) or to live under a theocracy (government in which a deity is the source from which all authority derives) I submit that history has shown that it is far better to live under a secular state. If you agree with this than you are making a value judgement that a secular state is better than a theocracy... and therefore rejecting cultural relativism. At this point your whole argument unravels.

Re: Hard Questions: How We Counter Terrorism

#52
Most people seem to be mentioning why terrorists won't be using facebook and instead some more secure etc.

That's probably not the issue FB is countering. They are/should be focussed on the content that's spreading radicalization/extremism. Lots of pages do that and since so many people have access someone is bound to be attracted!

Just recently a young female doctor from Pakistan was in news becausr she joined a terrorists group because she liked there posts/propaganda videos on FB. Thankfully she was caught during a operation!

Thag content really needs to be controlled! It's making small groups being a able to raise money/attract followers quite easily with just a private fb group or page!!

Re: Hard Questions: How We Counter Terrorism

#53

Communicate. Really, "terrorists" usually have the same goals as "we" do: peace, respect, safety, prosperity. If we stopped pretending that "we" are right and "they" are wrong, the problem might go away in the long run. Note that I do not approve of the terrorist approach to communication but, maybe, they just have no other way of making themselves heard, so if we listened, they might start talking instead of bombing…

This probably cannot be further from the truth.

We're no longer dealing with some Marxist hippies kidnapping planes for show.

The new breed we deal with is hell bent on destroying the so-called West. This "homeopathic" solution you present is only enabling them more.

Re: Hard Questions: How We Counter Terrorism

#54
post #7

This post makes it seem like Facebook subscribes to the theory that hiding unpleasant content prevents terrorism, and that there is universal global agreement on what counts as terrorism. Is there any scientific literature that supports this? The post seems to treat it as a foregone conclusion and declares war on that basis, but I would love to see the research before deciding whether I agree with what they're doing.

I agree that unfortunately the official definitions of terrorism are whacky and often colored by political or geostrategical evaluations, but there is one that works: Terrorists are persons who directly and intentionally target noncombatant civilians as a means to achieve political goals. IMHO, this is the best definition and captures what we ordinarily mean by 'terrorist'. It does make certain acts that are classifi…

> Terrorists are persons who directly and intentionally target noncombatant civilians as a means to achieve political goals.

by this definition, lots of US soldiers are terrorists, they kill (sometimes intentionally, sometimes not, sometimes forcedly) civilians in Libya, Iraq (where nuclear weapon not found), Syria, Vietnam in old days and in many more countries

> Taleban attacking a military base are not terrorists by that definition

Of course, they are defending their own place, what the hell is military base of different country is doing something in totally different country, maybe occupation? which means using terroristic acts

Re: Hard Questions: How We Counter Terrorism

#55
post #7

This post makes it seem like Facebook subscribes to the theory that hiding unpleasant content prevents terrorism, and that there is universal global agreement on what counts as terrorism. Is there any scientific literature that supports this? The post seems to treat it as a foregone conclusion and declares war on that basis, but I would love to see the research before deciding whether I agree with what they're doing.

Do you believe the propagation of narratives that try to justify illegal terrorist violence help support terrorists? I agree with that idea. And following from that basis, suppressing and/or countering such narratives is correct.

> Do you disagree with the idea that the propagation of narratives that pretend to support illegal terrorist violence does not actually help support terrorists?

I'm genuinely having trouble reading that sentence so I'm going to assume from the rest of your quote that you are advocating the hypothesis that narratives that attempt to justify terrorist violence supports terrorists. I think most people would agree with that, but that is not what was questioned.

There currently seems to be a prevailing Western narrative unquestioned by mass media that the most effective way to prevent terrorism is to control the material people consume, especially on social media.

The TV and print media is full of the narratives of billionaire press barrons and arms-exporting governments. If we accept that radicalisation is driven by narratives that become accepted (we are the good guys) and that it is a gradual process (opposed -> indifferent -> supporter -> active) how would we even know if we were radicalised by the narratives that we consume?

Perhaps when we advocate detention without trial of terror suspects; the abdandomnent of human rights laws for terror suspects; extra-judicial murder for suspected terrorists; a war on foreign soil with the overt and understandable intent that our armed forces should have zero casualties?

Personally, I think there is a case for censoring truly extreme material as long as extreme caution is used so it doesn't spread to narratives which are critical of government foreign policy and there is an equal silencing of the overtly genocidal attitude of the far right that gets a far easier time and regularly enters corporate media ("bomb them"). I suspect the latter is quite effective radicalisation material and helps advance the idea that entire countries hate a religion and that this is a war that is an existential threat to people of that religion.

Re: Hard Questions: How We Counter Terrorism

#57
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be valid for a very limited subset of terrorists, but the kinds we are seeing today (IS, Boko Haram, ...) do not have these goals. Their main goals are the eradication of dissenters and the collecting of power over others. If you blow up people waiting in line in an airport, going to a concert, or visiting a nightclub, you are dead wrong. There is not much wiggle room here. If everyone who feels they are d…

>If everyone who feels they are don't have a way of making themselves heard (whether or not that thought is valid) just starts harming unrelated people, we can just do away with society completely. So... The US starts the Iraq War, thousands die, society goes away completely, and then ISIS show up? These groups didn't just decide to start these campaigns, their lives got progressively worse and they sought something…

They sought and they decided on the wrong thing - killing innocent civilians in a campaign to strike fear.

I know there are innocent casualties when we wage war, but that is not the same as what is happening here.

Re: Hard Questions: How We Counter Terrorism

#58
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe the propagation of narratives that try to justify illegal terrorist violence help support terrorists? I agree with that idea. And following from that basis, suppressing and/or countering such narratives is correct.

It's easy to paint this as a black and white issue. If you are Israeli you have one definition and Hamas another. Recently Kashmiri school girls were busying stone pelting the Indian Army. You think both sides are capable of sitting down and coming to consensus of what terrorist activity is? Facebook is going to be treading over all kinds of issues that even experienced socialogists find hard to deal with. It's good…

I certainly agree with the notion that the current iteration of "tech kings" and their minions are not so ideally adapted to the role of "social guardians" that has been thrust upon them. But...maybe it's like having kids -- you're never ready. You just have to make it work somehow.

But I disagree with the invocation of "this is a complex topic" to sort of muddy the waters of what is or is not terrorism. That ambiguity gives wriggle room for terrorists to slip in and justify their acts which can't be allowed.

It's pretty clear to me when I switch on the news and see Manchester, or Bataclan, or the south of France or Charlie Hebdo, or Al Shabbab, or basically anyone doing this brutal medieval stuff is terrorism.

I don't really want to wade into the Israeli Palestinian thing except to say that, as in Northern Ireland, sometimes there is this financial incentive, to both sides, for conflicts to simmer for a long time at low-temperature -- if peace is declared, the money stops flowing. And in such a situation, it pays to muddy the waters, since both sides want to seem justified to keep the money flowing. I am certainly no expert on this ME issue, this is, IMHO, a factor.

But this sort of incentivized conflict is, IMHO, entirely different to the non-state terrorism we are all aware of today.

Re: Hard Questions: How We Counter Terrorism

#59
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe the propagation of narratives that try to justify illegal terrorist violence help support terrorists? I agree with that idea. And following from that basis, suppressing and/or countering such narratives is correct.

> Do you disagree with the idea that the propagation of narratives that pretend to support illegal terrorist violence does not actually help support terrorists? I'm genuinely having trouble reading that sentence so I'm going to assume from the rest of your quote that you are advocating the hypothesis that narratives that attempt to justify terrorist violence supports terrorists. I think most people would agree with t…

It seems like there is a lot to process in what you are saying. It will probably take me a while to digest it and respond, if I respond. Thanks!

Re: Hard Questions: How We Counter Terrorism

#60
We don't need to make "terrorism" a special case. The number of deaths due to terrorist activity in the West amounts to a rounding error on the roster of ways people die. We already have the tools and means to deal with it, we just don't seem to be using them. We do, however, need to counter the effort of governments to use terrorism as a pretense for their attacks on civil liberties.

The response to terrorism seems to demand ever increasing surveillance, collaboration between tech companies and intelligence agencies to undermine user privacy, militarizing of police forces, limiting free speech and political expression, control of the media (including social media), extrajudicial detainment and murder on a global scale.

And yet, every time there is an attack, it seems there's a clear and obvious trail of evidence leading to the conspirators that was ignored, which could have been followed up on by existing methods.

Is it the case that terrorists are just that good or that governments are only pretending to fight them in order to justify authoritarian power grabs?

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