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Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

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Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#31

Computers use base two because their most natural unit can occupy one of a couple states: 0 or 1. One, two, base two. Human hands, on the other foot, have ten fingers. Since our favorite mapping between things and integers is finger counting, we naturally end up with more than two states. Zero, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and the fully-extended state, ten. That's eleven states, which is why…

Base 10 uses 0 to 9 digits, just like base 2 uses 0 and 1.

Roman numerals are closer to finger counting because they lack zero.

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#32
post #11

While not intended to be used mathematically, the I Ching hexagrams developed around 1000AD represented the binary numbers from 0-63 (2^6), as discovered by Leibniz who was quite fond of binary himself.

Came here to say this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching

And as you know each hexagram was composed of two groups (trigrams) of three pairs. Similar to bytes and nibbles.

Even though the superstition is unfounded, the trigrams could combine in any way to refer to concepts and expositions that could give a lot of food for thought. Quite a nice system and very elegant because of its basis in binary numbers.

Edit: and I think you meant to say 1000 BC, not AD. In short a LONG time ago!

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#33
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, Peter. Welcome to Hacker News! If you get downvoted, it's because HN community takes a somewhat strict approach when moderating comments that contribute noise to the conversation. "Nice article!" comments are routinely downvoted. As is sarcasm, witticisms, memes, references and other styles of comments that occur frequently but do not contribute to the discussion. It's a knowingly doomed attempt to hold back the…

That last part feels a little aggressive in this case... The Wikipedia article he linked to is actually pretty interesting, relevant, and appropriate. Sure the presentation is tongue and cheek, but so are half of the comments on this site...

> but so are half of the comments on this site...

Yeah... There are a lot more jokes and sarcasm being voted up on HN these days. It's always been around, but it used to be voted down a lot more. Can't say I'm happy about that change. It seems the fate of all vote-based communities to eventually devolve into Digg 3.0...

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#34
While the described system has some powers of 2, which is interesting, it is a far cry from positional binary. It most certainly does not prefigure the system described by Leibniz, nor the application of arithmetical operations to logic, which was the profound insight in question. This shares far more with things like the base-60 fractions used by Mesopotamians than anything recognizably similar to modern binary and logic systems. (Which of course derive a great deal from Aristotle, significantly more than 600 years ago).

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#35

Of course, we all know what they would have used if they were real pros: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factorial_number_system

Hi, Peter. Welcome to Hacker News! If you get downvoted, it's because HN community takes a somewhat strict approach when moderating comments that contribute noise to the conversation. "Nice article!" comments are routinely downvoted. As is sarcasm, witticisms, memes, references and other styles of comments that occur frequently but do not contribute to the discussion. It's a knowingly doomed attempt to hold back the…

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Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#36

Computers use base two because their most natural unit can occupy one of a couple states: 0 or 1. One, two, base two. Human hands, on the other foot, have ten fingers. Since our favorite mapping between things and integers is finger counting, we naturally end up with more than two states. Zero, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and the fully-extended state, ten. That's eleven states, which is why…

What you're missing is that positional numeral systems developed relatively late--in recorded history, which is well after number systems start to be encoded in language. Earlier numeral systems are counting systems, where zero isn't a proper number but rather a signifier for a lack of stuff.

Let's look at numbers in natural languages. In English, we start with 12 basic numbers--one through twelve--and then we start counting "three-ten", "four-ten", etc. through "nine-ten." After that, we say "two tens" (the "tens" gets corrupted to -ty in Modern English), then "two tens one", etc. Note that we're not saying "two tens zero"--that's a sign that zero is not really fundamental in our counting system (etymologically, the term "zero" in English appears to date only to around 1600, contrast that to the -ty affix that dates back to at least Proto-Germanic, although many of the numbers themselves have roots back in Proto-Indo-European).

You can also see this effect in early numeral systems. Note that Roman numerals--the most common numeral system in Europe until the Early Modern--has distinct letters for 5 (V), 50 (L), and 500 (D), which is the usual case in most of its contemporary numeral systems. The Greek numerals for, say, 666, would be χξϛ--same general principal as Roman numerals, even though it has distinct numerals for every digit rather than just ones and fives.

The actual development of a true zero and true positional numeral system appears to have only independently happened very few times. The Mesoamericans probably developed it around the same time as the Long Count calendar (exact date uncertain, but roughly contemporary with the Roman Empire). Hindu-Arabic numerals developed probably slightly later (thought to be around 400 AD or so)--and it's from this system that pretty much every modern numeral system comes. The quipu could definitely represent numbers in true positional fashion, although the dating of this is unknown to me.

Base 10 predominates in modern numeral systems primarily because of the primacy of Hindu-Arabic numerals. The derivation of number terms in natural languages shows a rather confusing panoply of numbering bases. The vigesimal and sexagesimal number systems of Mesoamerica and Mesopotamia do show residual base-5 and base-10 in their construction, and the terminology in relevant native languages tends to indicate a base 10 strata (so the number in "78" in Mayan and Nahuatl boils down to "three twenty ten eight"), which strongly suggests that these systems are chosen for accounting purposes, not for things like "counting on fingers and toes." It's also worth pointing out that the human visual system subitizes small numbers--basically, you don't need to count three objects, you just take a glance and immediately know "there are three"--and this process tends to break down around 4-6 objects. It's not hard to imagine that number systems like duodecimal or vigesimal are based on counting subitized groups.

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#37
post #11

While not intended to be used mathematically, the I Ching hexagrams developed around 1000AD represented the binary numbers from 0-63 (2^6), as discovered by Leibniz who was quite fond of binary himself.

That is weird, right? Where did the precise use of broken and unbroken lines, in all the combinations necessary to represent binary 0 to 63 originate? It's a compact representation to label 64 different things using 6 "sticks"...but why did they do it like this? Were they aware of binary numbers?

It's not that hard. If you limit yourself to two symbols and try to think of ways to represent as many things as you can, you just have to keep adding additional columns/rows.

As long as you realize that you can use different combinations of the "first" spots with each additional spot you quickly come up with what is effectively binary.

I distinctly remember in early middle school trying to think of ways to enumerate things where you could never confuse one for the other based on the symbols. I was using base 10 because I wanted to store the combination of things in a variable in BASIC on a program I was trying to write on my calculator. As I was playing around on paper I came up with a great system.

I would only use one and zero because you could always tell them apart, where as if you use the other numbers then you can't tell if you meant five or if that five was a combination of two and three. When you needed to make another thing and you were out of places you would just add a digit on the left.

Then about five seconds later it hit me that what I had was just binary. All of a sudden the idea of using individual bits in masks to represent things (which I'd seen before) made a lot more sense.

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#38
post #11

While not intended to be used mathematically, the I Ching hexagrams developed around 1000AD represented the binary numbers from 0-63 (2^6), as discovered by Leibniz who was quite fond of binary himself.

That is weird, right? Where did the precise use of broken and unbroken lines, in all the combinations necessary to represent binary 0 to 63 originate? It's a compact representation to label 64 different things using 6 "sticks"...but why did they do it like this? Were they aware of binary numbers?

the sticks are literal sticks, used in fortune telling. It's roughly equivalent to flipping a coin. If you had a game where you flipped six coins, and each combination had a different meaning, you would be close to inventing binary

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#39
If this stuff is interesting to you, you should read about Geoff Saxe's work [0] with the Oksapmin people of Papua New Guinea. This book is newish (and I haven't read it, but I've read almost all of the studies the book is built on) and synthesizes a couple of decades of research into how these people count and talk about number and how that practice changed over time (there's some fascinating conclusions about how the base changed from base-27 to base-20 when western money, in particular the 1 pound : 20 shilling ratio, came to be more widely-used).

And yeah, more or less base-27. They used body parts to refer to numbers 1-27, and often anything higher than that was just "a lot", but they could count more using the system if needed. How the Oksapmin people mingled both traditional counting and modern arithmetic is pretty fascinating (and says a lot about the underlying cognitive processes that make humans able to reason about number).

0: http://a.co/6gbRM1x

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#40
post #27
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a study that found Polynesian DNA markers in indigenous Brazilian remains. It's probably what you are referring to by the some evidence. https://www.nature.com/news/dna-study-links-indigenous-brazi... I've visited Mangareva. It's a lovely island and a step in the journey to get to Pitcairn Island.

Did your trip include Pitcairn Island? I'd be interested in your impressions of the place (population 50, boat every 3 months or so).

Yes it did. I visited in 2012. I put some photos online here http://cd.pn/pn2012/

That covers the trip from Mangareva to Pitcairn and back.

I loved it on Pitcairn. The island is small but very hilly so there's more walking around and things to see than I expected. The people were friendly and welcoming.

I went there via a yacht from Mangareva that was chartered through an island run travel agency. I stayed for about three weeks. There's definitely a feeling of isolation once the yacht left knowing that there's no way to leave until it comes back. I also had to adjust to no mobile phone and power only on half the day. I was constantly checking my pocket for the first few days to check mail and messages only to realise I didn't have a phone!

I stayed with an island couple - accomodation fee covers food, etc. They were great. They have a shop on the island that gets stocked through the three monthly supply ship. Most of the food comes from island gardens, food growing wild and fishing. I fished a lot!

There are artifacts from the Bounty and other shipwrecks around the island. Cannons, anchors, etc. There's a museum with more artifacts and island history. The church holds an original bible from the Bounty.

There were a number of island events while I was there for birthdays and a market day where islanders sell there unwanted goods to other islanders or visitors. I was surprised at the number of visitors to the island. Lots of yachties ticking off their bucket list. And a surprising number of solo sailors visiting. I met a lot of interesting people.

My perception may be coloured by the fact that I'm related to many people there through my grandmother who was born on the island in the early 1900s. I went there to learn about where she lived and my family ancestral history.

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