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Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

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151–160 of 234 posts

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#151
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent has a good point actually, because "mov eax,1" automatically zero-extends in 64-bit mode. It's still one byte longer than the equivalent AArch64 instruction, though.

Fine. If you are really into getting the shortest instruction, try "xorl %eax,%eax" then "incl %eax" which is four bytes (31 c0 ff c0).

push $1/pop %eax (6a 01 58) is shorter, but perhaps not the best idea.

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#152
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually unrelated with Connectix. Connectix is much older, and was killed a long time ago. Virtual PC for Macs was a full-blown JIT though.

Every time I read anything about Connectix, I become more convinced that they were run by some combination of time travelers and genetically modified super-hackers.

MODE32. Virtual PC. Virtual Game Station (PS1 emulator). RAM Doubler. Speed Doubler. QuickCam.

One hell of a run.

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#153
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a little ignorant on this, but how can you own the rights to instructions? Isn't that the same as owning the rights to an API, or the naming and operation of functions? I mean, would I be infringing if I re-implemented the C standard library, or the standard library of some language with a copyrighted spec? How can you even patent something like that? It goes beyond software patents, as it appears to me. But agai…

We're not talking here about what is right, or even what is correct under the law. We're talking about what a set of lawyers think they can plausibly use to bring an infringement case and not be laughed out of court. A broad spectrum of possibilities.

Actually this sub thread is about what is right.

> To be fair Intel has done a lot of work to make the x86 as great as possible. Patent lawsuits are awful. I'm not sure just copying someone's technology and emulating it without paying a license fee is all that great either.

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#154
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you execute your i386 binary on an Intel, AMD, or other licensed processor, then you're protected by the doctrine of exhaustion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaustion_of_intellectual_pro... If you execute it in an emulator, though, all bets are off...

Here's an insane idea--what if every Win10 ARM laptop also included a Pentium 4 or Athlon XP chip (from a junked PC) glued inside the case? Would the x86 patent rights from that chip cover an emulator running on the ARM? (I'm pretty sure it's a no, but an Aereo-esque lawsuit arguing the opposite would be fun to watch)

No more than wearing an Intel t-shirt would give you rights to all their patents.

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#155
post #105
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All on non-Intel foundry processes. That was unimaginable 10 years ago. Not really. 15 years ago, AMD was outperforming Intel at a lower price.

That was not because of foundry process, but because of better architecture. Intel was leading or tied at process width and clock speed the whole time.

17 years ago AMD was leading due to foundry - they were the first x86 with copper interconnects.

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1141534

Somewhat hilariously Intel released "Coppermine" series of CPUs in 1999, but those used Alu interconnects :D and were famously unstable above 1GHz.

AMD was also first to 1GHz. http://www.anandtech.com/show/498/4

Intel was even trying to dispute that fact, but its hard to convince PC hardware journalists you are first when they are already testing 1GHz Athlons on their own desks while reading Intel press release about closed door demonstration.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/1-ghz-intel-claims-it-was-first...

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#156
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emulation is only an implementation of the ISA. The x86 ISA is hardly "as great as possible". In fact, it's downright crummy: x86-64 is as bloated as RISC architectures usually are without any of RISC's benefits. At best you can make the argument that x86 has done well in spite of the ISA, not because of it. The silicon-level implementation is another matter entirely, of course--but emulation has nothing to do with t…

x86-64 is a perfectly acceptable ISA. Strong memory ordering, no architectural optimizations leaking out like branch delay slots or stack windows. Pretty good i-cache efficiency through the use of two-address code and memory operands. Of course, Intel didn't have much to do with it. Most of it is either an accident of history or the work of AMD, who a lot of work regularizing the ISA in the 64-bit transition.

Almost everything that you described is microarchitectural, and not tied to the ISA.

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#157
post #23

The article mentions Cyrix as a "victim" of Intel patent defense; however, Cyrix not only won their lawsuits, but they also went after Intel for patent violations in the Pentium Pro and Pentium II processors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrix http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/84...

You can win a lawsuit and still lose so much time and money on the way that you are worse off afterwards. Vice versa you can cause your opponents so much trouble with lawsuits that - even though you don't win them - you are better off than them afterwards.

Creative vs Aureal Semiconductor is a good example. Creative sued them multiple times while at the same time stealing their patented technology! Creative lost every single lawsuit, but legal costs forced Aureal into bankruptcy. Creative bought assets on the cheap.

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth noting that Microsoft's emulator is only emulating x86, not AMD64 (at least not yet)

I definitely didn't know. Are you sure about this/do you have a link?

Yeah, it's been mentioned in all the posts. I assume it was enough work just to get x86 working, and there's almost no 64-bit-only Windows software (certainly nothing you would want to run emulated).

"only 32-bit x86 support is being offered"

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10889/microsoft-and-qualcomm-b...

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't have a hardware implementation, you are trying to patent an abstract idea, which Alice Corp. v. CLS Bank International found to be invalid.

Nope, an abstract idea has always been invalid. Alice vs CLS Bank found that "on a computer" wasn't a sufficient inventive step to transform an abstract idea into something patentable [1]. This can be used to invalidate a claim, but won't shrink the scope of a claim to hardware only (as then, if software was the only inventive step, it would be a pure abstract idea). The USPTO certainly seems to think an ISA is paten…

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean if you have a patent that includes hardware, then that patent would prevent emulating the hardware in software? Wouldn't any software patent then be possible, by the simple expedient of describing it in the patent application as running on a custom single-purpose hardware device?

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#160
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One has to wonder why this approach hasn't been successful in litigation against game console emulator developers.

Possibly because emulators didn't provide a source of potential licensing revenue—they're all free.

Not really. Bleem and VGS were a big business, Steve Jobs himself advertised VGS during Macworld 1999

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUfu-xOGr1U&t=9m0s

Sony sued the shit out of them and lost, and then bought VGS from Connectix. Sony bankrupted Bleem withe legal cost and later hired Bleem programmers :/

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