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Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

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11–20 of 234 posts

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#11
post #8
post #4

How did I not already know Microsoft had a working x86 emulator.. this is a massive game changer for the laptop space if it's fast and reliable enough, as afaik ARM chips are so much more power efficient for similar perf

Pretty sure it was this acquisition. https://news.microsoft.com/2003/02/19/microsoft-acquires-con...

It's actually unrelated with Connectix. Connectix is much older, and was killed a long time ago.

Virtual PC for Macs was a full-blown JIT though.

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#12
post #6

Patents expire after 17 years and x86 is 39 years old, so any of the original patents must have expired twice over already. They no doubt have been filing additional patents over the years. But I'm sure MS and Qualcomm have plenty of their own patents to bargain with. Also their warning could backfire if it gives Microsoft one more reason to finally walk away from x86 compatibility... not that this is likely to happe…

TFA specifically mentions SSE, AVX, TSX, and SGX. All of those have had new features added in the last year or two.

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#13
post #6

Patents expire after 17 years and x86 is 39 years old, so any of the original patents must have expired twice over already. They no doubt have been filing additional patents over the years. But I'm sure MS and Qualcomm have plenty of their own patents to bargain with. Also their warning could backfire if it gives Microsoft one more reason to finally walk away from x86 compatibility... not that this is likely to happe…

> their warning could backfire if it gives Microsoft one more reason to finally walk away from x86 compatibility

Emulation is an important part of walking away, no? Microsoft cares about backwards compatibility above anything else.

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#14

I remember IBM having a contract with Intel to allow other chip companies to make x86 chips in case Intel could not keep up with demand. QEMU emulates X86 chips as does other emulators. I wonder how those are effected?

AFAIK white box emulation has been around forever. I'd be surprised if it isn't already worked out in the courts, since this has been happening since before computers were around.

I don't think Intel wants to waste resources (and get bad PR) if it isn't a significant threat to their bottom line. Microsoft saying they are going to emulate x86 on ARM with low overhead (and thus making it possible to switch to ARM and still use tons of legacy software) is a much bigger danger to them.

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#15
Years ago, I spoke with an attorney with a CS background. He had once worked on a case like this. Sharp guy. He didn't tell me the parties involved, and I didn't ask, though I assume he wouldn't speak openly about it while it was ongoing. I therefore don't know how it turned out. It was many years ago, so I might be remembering wrong. I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice (neither mine nor his).

Basically, there are two approaches the plaintiff might take here. The simplest is to cite the doctrine of equivalents[1]. This is basically the notion that if you do the same thing in the same way for the same purpose, then it's the same process, even though you are using digital instructions instead of logic gates. The legal theory here is pretty well settled. The problem is that you'd need to justify that digital instructions are obviously equivalent to logic gates, and a skilled professional would have equated them at the time of the patent's filing.

The other approach is to argue that an emulator actually is a processor, and therefore fits the literal claims of the patent. The explanation for this is pretty well-established: it's literally the Church-Turing Thesis[2]. However, the viability of this argument depends on the language of the patent claims. Also, it's hard enough to explain the C-T Thesis to CS students. My undergrad had an entire 1-credit-equivalent course that basically just covered this and the decidability problem. Explaining it to a judge, who (while likely highly intelligent) probably has no CS background, over the course of litigation is likely to be really hard.

Now, Intel certainly has enough resources to do both of these things (and they may also have precedent to cite, that didn't exist back then or that wasn't relevant to that case). Don't take this as an opinion on any possible result, it's just information such as I remember it.

[1]- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_equivalents [2]- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church%E2%80%93Turing_thesis

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#17
post #15

Years ago, I spoke with an attorney with a CS background. He had once worked on a case like this. Sharp guy. He didn't tell me the parties involved, and I didn't ask, though I assume he wouldn't speak openly about it while it was ongoing. I therefore don't know how it turned out. It was many years ago, so I might be remembering wrong. I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice (neither mine nor his). Basically, there…

One patent is https://patents.google.com/patent/US6721866B2 which is for LDDQU and probably would not matter for an emulator. I wonder about https://patents.google.com/patent/US7155601B2/en which is a patent on PSHUFLW/PSHUFHW. I wonder if a CPU instruction in which the only difference is that it operates on different registers is patentable.

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK white box emulation has been around forever. I'd be surprised if it isn't already worked out in the courts, since this has been happening since before computers were around.

I don't think Intel wants to waste resources (and get bad PR) if it isn't a significant threat to their bottom line. Microsoft saying they are going to emulate x86 on ARM with low overhead (and thus making it possible to switch to ARM and still use tons of legacy software) is a much bigger danger to them.

Isn't there some notion that you have to actively defend a patent to enforce it? That is, something where selective enforcement puts you in a weaker legal position?

Edit: The legal term appears to be "the doctrine of latches"

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#19
post #4

How did I not already know Microsoft had a working x86 emulator.. this is a massive game changer for the laptop space if it's fast and reliable enough, as afaik ARM chips are so much more power efficient for similar perf

There are several existing and excellent x86 emulators floating around. In the open source space, QEMU is quite fantastic and well supported. I'm not surprised at all that Microsoft managed to either develop one in house, or acquire one.

x86 is an old and very well understood architecture at this point. The difficulty thus isn't in writing a working emulator, it's in figuring out which features you can support from a business perspective without treading on still active patents. Microsoft is one of the few companies that can probably absorb a patent fight here and come out on top, and if they succeed, it will counter-intuitively threaten the continued dominance of x86. Once they can release an ARM-based version of Windows that sports backwards compatibility (the primary missing feature that caused Windows RT to fail spectacularly) more mobile machines will be free to use ARM chips, and software developers will have incentives to natively support ARM targets for power efficiency reasons.

Since Intel banks on x86 continuing to be the dominant architecture in the desktop and laptop space, they must feel threatened by this move, so the suit doesn't surprise me. They'll now be fighting an uphill battle. On the one hand, Intel processors are still pretty much king in raw performance, but on the other hand, very few consumers actually need the kind of performance that you can only get on Intel chips anymore. A decent web browser runs on just about anything, so an architecture shift in the consumer space is quite plausible. Some could argue that it's already happened with tablets.

Re: Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulation is a patent minefield

#20
post #15

Years ago, I spoke with an attorney with a CS background. He had once worked on a case like this. Sharp guy. He didn't tell me the parties involved, and I didn't ask, though I assume he wouldn't speak openly about it while it was ongoing. I therefore don't know how it turned out. It was many years ago, so I might be remembering wrong. I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice (neither mine nor his). Basically, there…

if it's Church Turing you're arguing, then Intel surely doesn't hold the patent on the whole equivalence class...
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