Chicago taxi industry sliding towards collapse • Hacker News Board

Re: Chicago taxi industry sliding towards collapse

#231

Post by valuearb » Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

cmurf wrote: post #152

basseq wrote: post #3

I'm left wondering... so what? The "personal transportation" market has massively changed. Whether it's for the better or worse simply doesn't matter . Veteran Chicago cabbie John Aikins,67, who is facing foreclosure on two medallions for which he owes more than $330,0000, said he has little hope that the industry can be saved. "It feels like the city is just watching us collapse," Aikins said. "Right now, there are…

Chicago owes a fair and equal competing market and what they've done is permit two totally different regulatory paradigms to exist at the same time: conventional taxes, and new taxies, sometimes also called ride sharing which is obviously bullshit to get around being called a taxi and regulated as a taxi. Uber and Lyft rides are also investor subsidized, and that is likewise market distorting. The city of Chicago, li…

We should buy back medallions because these vultures overpaid for them and drove medallion prices into the stratosphere because of the ability to overcharge riders they gave?

Medallions owners ripped off people in Chicago long enough. They should sow what they reaped.

Re: Chicago taxi industry sliding towards collapse

#232

Post by criddell » Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 6:46 PM UTC

justaman wrote: post #44

TY wrote: post #6

Anectodal evidence from my trip to Chicago last week. The same trip cost me twice as much when I took a taxi vs Lyft. So guess what I'm going to take the next time...

Bar time in Madison. Lyft was about $60, a cab was $20. If you find yourself around people in their twenties all looking for rides at 3am, call a cab.

I'd probably still take the Lyft. Every experience with Lyft that I've had has been good. The best I can say about my cab experiences is that they have been ok.

Re: Chicago taxi industry sliding towards collapse

#233

Post by DashRattlesnake » Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 6:49 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #47

bitJericho wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'll see what you think of the cab industry when uber raises their prices by 3 times in order to become profitable, after the cabbies all gone.

Yeah, and I bet after Borders shuts down, you'll see Amazon raise book prices sky-high! People always claim this will happen, and it never seems to. If Uber tripled prices, a competitor would start up to cut into their market share.

> Yeah, and I bet after Borders shuts down, you'll see Amazon raise book prices sky-high!

There's some truth to that: whenever I bother to check I find that Amazon is no longer price-competitive with brick-and-mortar.

> If Uber tripled prices, a competitor would start up to cut into their market share.

...unless there's no actual profit at anything less than 3x the current prices. Isn't Uber running on a VC subsidy right now?

Re: Chicago taxi industry sliding towards collapse

#234

Post by DashRattlesnake » Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 6:51 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #220

tjpd wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of examples of individual companies (or groups of companies) getting too much monopolistic (or oligopolistic) power and doing just that or similar. You could look at at the Phoebus Cartel of lightbulb manufactures [1], the Bell System monopoly [2], or in transportation the GM Streetcar conspiracy [3]. Due to Uber's network effects you could say they'd have even greater power to change prices dramatic…

Phoebus couldn't last, no free market cartel can. Bell System ended up being heavily regulated, and it's service was second to none. It was nearly a natural monopoly because of the cost of running phone lines. If Uber ever became that, we could resolve any problems with regulation. But in reality Uber can never become a natural monopoly, entry into their market is too easy and just gets easier over time as costs decl…

> Bell System ended up being heavily regulated, and it's service was second to none. It was nearly a natural monopoly because of the cost of running phone lines. If Uber ever became that, we could resolve any problems with regulation.

I think it's unlikely that the current political climate will allow such problems to be solved with regulation.

Re: Chicago taxi industry sliding towards collapse

#235

Post by criddell » Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 7:02 PM UTC

stephenr wrote: post #201

wayn3 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if taxi protectionism led to better drivers, id agree. but it does not. taxi drivers are mega sketchy, to the point where id be very worried if my gf or future children had to deal with them. beyond their sketchyness, they act entitled to a point that is just not respectable. apparently, you think their pricing is regulated, which its not. whats regulated is their pay per time. to jack prices up, they take bullshit r…

So yet again, America tries its own specific brand of something, yet again with minimal meaningful regulation, watch it turn to shit when the "market" acts on profit goals alone, and then claim it's a terrible idea that can never work. This brings us to: health care, banking, mobile phone networks, electoral systems, and now taxis. Meanwhile the civilised world has regulated taxi systems that work, where you know wha…

> Meanwhile the civilised world has regulated taxi systems that work

There isn't a one-size-fits-all solution. In London, or example, the best taxi drivers are going to be better than the best Uber or Lyft drivers. It's a difficult city to navigate. When I'm there, I'm not even going to consider using Lyft.

Most American cities are much easier to get around in and there I think the lower barriers to entry make sense. When ride hailing services came to Sarasota, Florida, the taxi companies complained and the city did something interesting. Rather than try to regulate the new companies, they dropped regulations on the old companies with the idea that if they find regulations are needed, they will bring them back. It's several years into this experiment and so far it's working well. I think more cities should try a similar experiment.

Mostly, I think the market does pretty well in the hire-a-ride business.

I was in Las Vegas all week and we used both Lyft and taxi cabs. The Lyft rides were the clear winner in every respect. The Lyft cars were newer and cleaner and the drivers were friendly and offered us water and other things. The taxis were older, more run down, and the drivers were aggressive and not very friendly.

In London, professional drivers win on their efficiency and expertise.

Re: Chicago taxi industry sliding towards collapse

#236

Post by criddell » Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 7:03 PM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #95

Jimmie_Rustle wrote: post #92

| The union is calling on the city take several actions to provide relief for the city’s struggling taxi industry, including changing rules so taxi drivers aren’t required to replace their vehicles as often Right! Let's loosen the rules and allow the cabs to be in worse condition than they already are, that will get the customers back! /s

Well, we bail out banks who make shoddy investments. That's my only counter to the idea that medallions are going to ruin some lives soon.

Most restaurants fail and we don't bail them out.

I think the big banks are a special case because letting them fail may be more expensive than bailing them out.

Re: Chicago taxi industry sliding towards collapse

#237

Post by CamperBob2 » Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 7:05 PM UTC

tstactplsignore wrote: post #9

basseq wrote: post #3

I'm left wondering... so what? The "personal transportation" market has massively changed. Whether it's for the better or worse simply doesn't matter . Veteran Chicago cabbie John Aikins,67, who is facing foreclosure on two medallions for which he owes more than $330,0000, said he has little hope that the industry can be saved. "It feels like the city is just watching us collapse," Aikins said. "Right now, there are…

>Whether it's for the better or worse simply doesn't matter Yikes- I have only a little sympathy for the taxi industry, but it is very scary that you do not believe we should be concerned with whether market forces improve society or not. I think it is extremely important to the vast majority of people that any enormous change in transportation occurs for the benefit of society - the ideology that capitalism is an en…

Yikes- I have only a little sympathy for the taxi industry, but it is very scary that you do not believe we should be concerned with whether market forces improve society or not.

Pretty much any actual customers of ride-sharing services such as Uber and Lyft have already answered that question adequately for themselves. No one else's opinion -- not yours, not mine, and damned sure not the taxi cartel's -- is of any importance.

That doesn't mean there aren't risks, of course, especially for those who think the cheap rides are going to last forever. If government has a legitimate role here, it will come into play when the VCs get tired of subsidizing said Uber and Lyft customers. The taxi medallion business may be dead, but it won't be buried for good until the ride-sharing industry is genuinely self-sustaining.

Re: Chicago taxi industry sliding towards collapse

#238

Post by averagewall » Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 7:13 PM UTC

unethical_ban wrote: post #218

wizu wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Chicago cares about the cabbies That's the thing though, they don't. And why would they? These cabbies made a bet that the medallion would not lose value until they sold it, and they lost that bet. How is this different from any other small-time business going bankrupt?

Sure. Next thing, the Treasury immediately stops honoring $20 bills. Hey, what chumps we were, accepting cash! The analogy holds: A city government had a system where a good had artificial scarcity and intrinsic value from stable government policy. Then, it suddenly changed. I'm all for ride-hailing changing our public transit dynamic, but I can't fault the players of the old system too much for saying "What the hell…

I don't think the city stopped honoring anything or changed any rules. The medallion buyers were just speculating and didn't see the future well. No different from people who buy property for retirement then there's a recession and the surrounding population declines and it becomes worthless. Investment is gambling. Everyone knows that. You're supposed to diversify. Humble wage earners don't have that problem. Drivers who rent medallions don't have that problem. Only the risk taking ones who took loans for something that might lose value do.

Re: Chicago taxi industry sliding towards collapse

#239

Post by robotresearcher » Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 7:23 PM UTC

bpchaps wrote: post #125

thephyber wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have some sympathy for the cab drivers who put their life savings in medallions Nope. Nope nope nope nope nope. They were speculators in a bubble market. It didn't matter what percentage of their life savings they used. If you feel sorry for someone who purchased a $300k taxi medallion which had an intrinsic value (the total value a medallion can be used for rental to taxi drivers over X years) which is far less, y…

Heh, that could be said about ANY bubble. You're entirely victim blaming here. Keep in mind that many, many, many of the people who become taxi drivers are from other countries and often speak little to no english. Many do it because of a simple lack of options in their complex scenarios. Paired with taxi companies taking advantage of people in these situations, you're completely minimizing a complex problem. You sho…

Few vulnerable immigrant taxi drivers are buying $300K medallions. They are renting them at high rates from rent-seekers.

Re: Chicago taxi industry sliding towards collapse

#240

Post by averagewall » Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 7:24 PM UTC

pyrale wrote: post #182

basseq wrote: post #3

I'm left wondering... so what? The "personal transportation" market has massively changed. Whether it's for the better or worse simply doesn't matter . Veteran Chicago cabbie John Aikins,67, who is facing foreclosure on two medallions for which he owes more than $330,0000, said he has little hope that the industry can be saved. "It feels like the city is just watching us collapse," Aikins said. "Right now, there are…

> Whether it's for the better or worse simply doesn't matter. I guess it matters to those upon which the worse is imposed. By that, I mean not only the taxi drivers. From an individual standpoint, those who get to drive for Uber are happy to get jobs, but looking at the problem at the scale of the workforce, replacing one jobless man and one well-paid man by one less paid man and a jobless man is a net loss.

Anything's a net loss if you choose the scope arbitrarily. It's not just two guys losing money. It's also the customers saving money and getting better service.

If you see a taxi company as some kind of employer of last resort or an unemployment benefit without the shame, then perhaps it's a net loss, but why not just call a benefit a benefit and hand out cash to un/underemployed people. If you have to take a pound of flesh to prevent abuse, then have them break rocks or something to earn their payments.