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Pirate Joe’s, Maverick Distributor of Trader Joe’s Products, Shuts Down

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Re: Pirate Joe’s, Maverick Distributor of Trader Joe’s Products, Shuts Down

#261

Post by valuearb »

analog31 wrote: post #178
captainmuon wrote: post #10

I don't understand with what right trader Joe's can prohibit somebody from reselling their products. If he clearly states where he bought them from, and that he is not affiliated, and doesn't misuse their trademarks (impersonate them), it should be absolutely legal. A side remark, people often say how great the US / north America is for entrepreneurs, compared to (continental) Europe where there is a lot of red tape…

Contrary to popular belief, I've read that there are actually more entrepreneurs per capita in Europe than in the US.

If your employee "protection" laws make it difficult to start and grow small businesses, of course you'll end up with lots more 1-2 person businesses, and can claim you have more "entrepreneurs".

Re: Pirate Joe’s, Maverick Distributor of Trader Joe’s Products, Shuts Down

#262

Post by valuearb »

anigbrowl wrote: post #213
noonespecial wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because legal departments are not capitalists. They're a kind of ultra-conservative entity motivated entirely by fear/anger of any perceived change. What we have here is a COO/CEO asleep at the wheel. One of the CEOs most important jobs is to watch the legal department for signs they're about to draw the old foot-gun and start playing "this little piggy" with company toes.

No, no, no. Legal departments are fiduciaries and where the law itself is weird (as in trademark protection where companies are virtually forced to sue potential infringers) it's not their responsibility to reform the legal system. https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverherzfeld/2013/02/28/failu... motivated entirely by fear/anger of any perceived change Oh don't be such a baby, that's like saying engineering departments…

Just because you can sue, and might win, doesn't mean you should. This was damaging to the Trader Joes brand. If I was Chief Marketing Officer of Trader Joes, I'd be demanding the Chief Legal Officer be fired.

Civil courts do not exist outside of the real world. There are consequences to how you use them.

Re: Pirate Joe’s, Maverick Distributor of Trader Joe’s Products, Shuts Down

#263

Post by valuearb »

He spent so much time and effort creating and running the store and fighting this. I mean, paying $20/hour for people to shop Trader Joes to get him goods at retail? That's so incredibly inefficient.

Why didn't he just create his own store with his own brand and mimic the Trader Joes products and aesthetic? He could buy goods in bulk at much lower prices. He doesn't have to worry (much) about legal issues or spend money on them.

Clearly demand was so high he could still get away with charging very high prices.

Re: Pirate Joe’s, Maverick Distributor of Trader Joe’s Products, Shuts Down

#264

Post by psyc »

will_brown wrote: post #253
psyc wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems quite a stretch to include the store's return policy in the identity of the "product".

So there is no confusion, I'm not making a arguement out of thin air, this is the case law. Here is a decent article [1]published by the American Bar Association regarding the resale of "genuine" goods (not counterfeit) by unauthorized retailers. Skip to the "warranty policy and unauthorized dealer page" section, then "going to court". Note the exceptions to first sale doctrine include "material changes" to the trade…

Oh, I'm not surprised at all that it's in the law, like so many other flights of fancy.

Re: Pirate Joe’s, Maverick Distributor of Trader Joe’s Products, Shuts Down

#265

Post by NotSammyHagar »

keithpeter wrote: post #237
captainmuon wrote: post #10

I don't understand with what right trader Joe's can prohibit somebody from reselling their products. If he clearly states where he bought them from, and that he is not affiliated, and doesn't misuse their trademarks (impersonate them), it should be absolutely legal. A side remark, people often say how great the US / north America is for entrepreneurs, compared to (continental) Europe where there is a lot of red tape…

I'm a little unclear as to why Trader Joe's did not simply negotiate a franchise with the chap running Pirate Joe's - strikes me as a cheap way to set up in another country. Better than paying all the legal fees.

because they'd want to control everything to do with the new corporation. A successful chain like that tries to make everything right, everything the same across stores. They'd never just let some random guy in his store look like a semi-official reseller.

I hate that they ran him out of business. I hate companies that try to enforce the no-resell strategy. It's really another version of the "you can't work on your tractor or phone without my permission" strategy.

Re: Pirate Joe’s, Maverick Distributor of Trader Joe’s Products, Shuts Down

#266

Post by NotSammyHagar »

lr4444lr wrote: post #173
afuchs wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is called the Grey Market. It isn't a legal designation. The first sale doctrine still applies to bulk purchases. If a seller wants to, they can refuse to sell to anyone that they think will latter resell their product. You can go into a store right now, buy something at full retail price, and list it on eBay. I doubt you would make any money, unless, like Pirate Joe's, you are selling to a market that is unable t…

No, First Sale Doctrine is something else. This guy was not selling copies. There's something in the law pertinent to the fact that this guy bought at a retail location, which causes TJ's loss on their commercial real estate which presumably they invest in to reach the consumer public with quantities said consuming public would typically purchase. Stores can put limits on units per customer of course, but there's rec…

I think you are wrong. you are allowed to resell anything you buy. Many companies try to control this, like trying to block costco from reselling overpriced but legitimately bought watches (apparently they charge much more for swiss watches in the us than in say Guatemala). Costco won that legal fight. This was just a loss because of money, one side had a lot more to waste.

I also don't understand what you are getting at about TJs losing money on commercial real estate. Since TJ doesn't sell in canada, and they sold more in the stores they this guy bought from, didn't they make more money from their real estate?

Re: Pirate Joe’s, Maverick Distributor of Trader Joe’s Products, Shuts Down

#267

Post by slantyyz »

learc83 wrote: post #104
jandrese wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. You don't have any of those legal rights. The courts agreed, but Trader Joes had bigger pockets and was able to kill Pirate Joes with just legal fees alone. They didn't have to win, they just had to keep him in court until he was broke. This is a pretty common tactic when big corporations are in lawsuits with individuals. Or in the case of healthcare suits they just wait until the plaintiff is dead of whatever…

It sounded like they weren't actually suing him over selling their products, but over the name "Pirate Joe's" Hey may still have won that one, but it's at least somewhat plausible that consumers might actually be confused by the name.

>> consumers might actually be confused by the name

Only problem is those consumers are in a different country - one where Trader Joe's does not operate. I would bet Pirate Joe's would have happily closed down if Trader Joe's opened up a store in Vancouver, since that's all the Pirate Joe guy wanted in the first place.

Re: Pirate Joe’s, Maverick Distributor of Trader Joe’s Products, Shuts Down

#268

Post by slantyyz »

halfnibble wrote: post #257

Trader Joe's doesn't want customers who spend a ton of money buying in bulk at full retail price. Furthermore, they clearly have no intention of expanding into a large market that desperately wants them. What kind of business is this?

TJ's clearly had a opportunity - there's pent up demand for TJ products in Canada, but instead of investing in a couple of satellite stores in Canada and some bilingual labeling, they chose to spend their money on lawyers and lawsuits.

Re: Pirate Joe’s, Maverick Distributor of Trader Joe’s Products, Shuts Down

#269

Post by ci5er »

mowenz wrote: post #205
jandrese wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. You don't have any of those legal rights. The courts agreed, but Trader Joes had bigger pockets and was able to kill Pirate Joes with just legal fees alone. They didn't have to win, they just had to keep him in court until he was broke. This is a pretty common tactic when big corporations are in lawsuits with individuals. Or in the case of healthcare suits they just wait until the plaintiff is dead of whatever…

>keep him in court until he was broke How many times do we have to hear these kinds of stories of abuse, or patent trolls, or of other unfairness and injustice in the legal system before anything is done about it? I mean the legal system produces some incredible injustices currently: If we get more stories such as billionaires like Jeffrey Epstein raping underage girls and getting a house-arrest with week nights spen…

> How many times do we have to hear these kinds of stories of abuse [...]

Well, probably more, if this type of stuff keeps getting conflated with legitimate cases of abuse and trolling. As is ... people are getting frothy about the application of the law as written.

What are you mad about? Somebody protecting their trademark? Their direct channel? Their distribution? Their customer guarantees? Their quality assurances?

Yeah - go ahead. Burn it all down. It's not like the system provided you with the cheap-ass (maybe mobile) computers via which you connect to the Internet (also cheaply) anyway...

Re: Pirate Joe’s, Maverick Distributor of Trader Joe’s Products, Shuts Down

#270

Post by ribosometronome »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #203
lsiebert wrote: post #180

I am not a lawyer, so I don't know that I am qualified to comment on the legal issues. I can say that this does make me upset at Trader Joe's, and I will be considering where else I can spend my money. They could have worked with this guy, eventually set up a Trader Joe's in Canada, and then offered to let this guy run it. That would have been better for their brand, in my view. I care about what companies do. Costco…

So it's okay to mimic stores, down to riding on their trademark? It's probably best to think of "What if someone cloned my favorite game and called it a slightly different name?" People had big problems with what Zynga was doing.

When you clone a game, the original game makes no profit. Pirate Joe's gave TJ's full profit.
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