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Challenging Mainstream Thought About Beauty’s Big Hand in Evolution

nytimes.com

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Re: Challenging Mainstream Thought About Beauty’s Big Hand in Evolution

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Enough just-so stories! I have been mostly saying this part for the last several years: But one particular aspect of his argument is his distress at the idea that almost all evolutionary change is assumed to be adaptive, contributing to fitness. In other words, if a fish is blue, it must be blue for a reason. The color must help it escape predators or sneak up on prey, or be otherwise useful in some way. Beauty, ther…

Optimising for sexual selection is an adaptive trait as far as fitness goes. Why is beauty then non-adaptive?

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Re: Challenging Mainstream Thought About Beauty’s Big Hand in Evolution

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Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, true homosexuality (no heterosexual coupling) would lead to lower fitness. Only humans and domesticated sheep have it. Probably because of relaxed evolutionary pressures on both, where fitness began to be less relevant.

>Probably because of relaxed evolutionary pressures on both, where fitness began to be less relevant. probably you don't understand evolution and natural selection. >true homosexuality (no heterosexual coupling) would lead to lower fitness. i can speculate the opposite - given that homosexuality seems to be highly correlated (i'm stereotyping here, yet lets suppose that it is statistically true for the sake of argume…

You can speculate this, but explain why only humans and domesticated sheep have been observed to practice homosexual behavior with no heterosexual coupling.

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150206-are-there-any-homose...

Re: Challenging Mainstream Thought About Beauty’s Big Hand in Evolution

#13
post #5

Enough just-so stories! I have been mostly saying this part for the last several years: But one particular aspect of his argument is his distress at the idea that almost all evolutionary change is assumed to be adaptive, contributing to fitness. In other words, if a fish is blue, it must be blue for a reason. The color must help it escape predators or sneak up on prey, or be otherwise useful in some way. Beauty, ther…

Aesthetic preferences exist for a reason, they've also been selected for and would often correlate with health indicators.

In the end reproductive success is all that's selected for, even at the expense of the host for the gene, like in the case of the peacock where their long tail makes them easy prey but also makes them easier to identify for a peahen.

Re: Challenging Mainstream Thought About Beauty’s Big Hand in Evolution

#14
post #6

I like how in one paragraph, Prum is espousing an adaptive basis for homosexuality and in the very next one talks about how maybe not everything is selected on. Maybe he has good reasons for thinking that homosexuality is adaptive that have been covered up with the author's "For a full account, you need to read the book", but given how bogus the overwhelmingly vast majority of evopsych is, I'd kind of doubt it.

In fact, true homosexuality (no heterosexual coupling) would lead to lower fitness. Only humans and domesticated sheep have it. Probably because of relaxed evolutionary pressures on both, where fitness began to be less relevant.

Selection via environmental fitness is one of the least significant evolutionary pressures.

Re: Challenging Mainstream Thought About Beauty’s Big Hand in Evolution

#15
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, true homosexuality (no heterosexual coupling) would lead to lower fitness. Only humans and domesticated sheep have it. Probably because of relaxed evolutionary pressures on both, where fitness began to be less relevant.

Selection via environmental fitness is one of the least significant evolutionary pressures.

What do you mean by environmental fitness? I literally mean that strict homosexuality results in less offspring by a large factor. Perhaps close to zero.

Re: Challenging Mainstream Thought About Beauty’s Big Hand in Evolution

#16
One thing my wife learned and told me (she’s a biologist so actual science vs my CS background :) ) was actually fairly interesting and is apparently widely considered true among evolutionary biologists:

If you are male of you are likely to carry genes from your father that produce a similar appearance to him. You will /also/ carry genes from your mother that prefer your appearance (your mother choose your father based on appearance). If you are female offspring you will inherit those same genes but won’t express the male appearance ones. You will still pass them on to your offspring.

So you end up with a cycle where offspring look like/prefer the appearance of their parents, and will forward variants of those genes on to their own offspring.

This is effectively a feedback loop that will carry on until limited by some other factor - eg if your tail is too long you may end up dying too quickly to mate, if it gets too small you may not be able to fly at all (some of the old pigeon breeds studied by Darwin are hilarious).

This means that the selection for beauty does not necessarily mean that there’s an awareness of fitness being proxied by beauty.

Once she had labouriously explained it to me it seemed really obvious.

* note I used male/female etc for ease of typing - there are a few species where the role of being attractive is reversed

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