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How Not to Fix Soccer

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Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#91

Post by megablast »

ErrantX wrote: post #23
Maro wrote: post #16

I am familiar with the FIFA's reasoning, and I just don't think it holds up. The best example is the NBA: advanced technical rules at NBA games aren't stopping anyone from playing basketball on the courts or at the High School level. Also, the rules are different anyways. At the FIFA level, games are played on large fields for 2x45 minutes, there are 4 refs, etc. AFAIR HS level games were 2x30 minutes and we were luc…

Would it really kill soccer if we had video replay? Yes. Alot. Injuries already interrupt the flow of the game - and one thing Football is good at is flowing (one reason I personally enjoy it). A good game is non-stop action (which is my only criticism of US sports - I usually get bored waiting for baseball for example :)) Match outcomes are routinely altered by erroneous ref. decisions, decisions which the whole wor…

Simple way to avoid this, have a tribunal to review matches as they do in Aussie Rules football. If a player is caught deliberately diving, ban them for life.

If everyone is wondering why the USA does not get into soccer, it is because the blatant cheating makes it a joke. It is not a real sport, and never will be, when one dive can win a game for a side, and have a player sent off. Americans have a sense of fair play, that will never accept this.

Of course, this would never get through. South American, Italian, Spanish and Greek clubs have to much sway over FIFA.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#92

Post by ekanes »

bukkake wrote: post #83
zalew wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's already being done, but not to punish dives. it's used to analyze more serious situations such as brutal fouls (a player can get additional punishment by football associations after the game, even to a complete season dismiss) or alleged corruption. dives are stupid and I hate them, but I think they are far overrated in the US (assumption from what I see in internet discussions)

I'll take it you meant "overblown" instead of "overrated". And no, that's not the case. We actually are incredibly offended by it. We see dives as part and parcel of corruption and as a "more serious situation".

I love soccer and I'd love to see more of it in North America. All the diving to the ground and "oooh my ankle" crap makes it look to people here like a sport full of unnecessary drama. If disincentives were added so diving didn't pay, the game's reputation would be much better imho.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#93

Post by ErrantX »

megablast wrote: post #91
ErrantX wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it really kill soccer if we had video replay? Yes. Alot. Injuries already interrupt the flow of the game - and one thing Football is good at is flowing (one reason I personally enjoy it). A good game is non-stop action (which is my only criticism of US sports - I usually get bored waiting for baseball for example :)) Match outcomes are routinely altered by erroneous ref. decisions, decisions which the whole wor…

Simple way to avoid this, have a tribunal to review matches as they do in Aussie Rules football. If a player is caught deliberately diving, ban them for life. If everyone is wondering why the USA does not get into soccer, it is because the blatant cheating makes it a joke. It is not a real sport, and never will be, when one dive can win a game for a side, and have a player sent off. Americans have a sense of fair pla…

Don't get me wrong; I disapprove of the diving and misconduct.

But I am utterly unconvinced that in-game replays will make a difference.

In fact the main problem is the culture of footballers. Go back a few years and things are a whole lot more brighter. Men were men :D and the rules were the law. You are right; strict punishment for cheating would help fix that. Setting limits for player wages and so forth as well would be an important idea.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#94

Post by zppx »

hcho wrote: post #72

The reason FIFA does not want video reffing is not keeping the spirit of the footbal or what so ever. FIFA (and UEFA for that matter) for that matter is a highly political organization which handles a lot of money with a somewhat obscure agenda. Fairness is a little bit less important when compared to leaving out big money nations(or clubs) from a tournement. Error-prone refereeing is a vital tool for keeping as many…

South Korea in 2002 is a good counterexample to this rule, if you look at club tournaments you'll see that larger teams also are constantly affected by errors.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#95

Post by lenni »

megablast wrote: post #91
ErrantX wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it really kill soccer if we had video replay? Yes. Alot. Injuries already interrupt the flow of the game - and one thing Football is good at is flowing (one reason I personally enjoy it). A good game is non-stop action (which is my only criticism of US sports - I usually get bored waiting for baseball for example :)) Match outcomes are routinely altered by erroneous ref. decisions, decisions which the whole wor…

Simple way to avoid this, have a tribunal to review matches as they do in Aussie Rules football. If a player is caught deliberately diving, ban them for life. If everyone is wondering why the USA does not get into soccer, it is because the blatant cheating makes it a joke. It is not a real sport, and never will be, when one dive can win a game for a side, and have a player sent off. Americans have a sense of fair pla…

These are the countries where football is most popular. Why shouldn't they have the most influence?

I don't know if there is such thing as a World American Football Association, but if there was, I'm sure Americans would call the shots.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#96

Post by megablast »

throwaway321 wrote: post #47

I'm not a particularly big fan of football, but even so it's glaringly obvious to me when I read articles by certain people (let's just say it's those who call it soccer) that they.. just don't get it. This isn't just random bloggers, I've read articles in big papers like the NY Times, and as much as they want and try to, they don't really understand it. It's not "inside" them like it is for me (involuntarily) and bi…

So you don't care about the blatant cheating that can completely change the course of a game?

Well, lots of people do not like cheating, do not like deliberate diving. For me, this completely ruins the game of soccer, and I will never take it seriously as a sport. I don't tune in to see which side can game the system the best.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#97

Post by ErrantX »

jules wrote: post #87
ErrantX wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many many injuries are players pretending to be injured. Video capture would stop those "injuries". And if there is an injury you don't need to stop for 30 seconds. Replay reviewing can be quicker than the time it takes for the player to get up. Would it really? I don't think so at all - except in the most blatant cases. If contact is made, well, the player might be making a meal of it but the letter of the law is…

> And if we had to stop each time a player went down to decide if contact was made or not that would just ruin the game :P Ehm, obviously the players would pretend less if they get punished for it. That's the idea of a working ref system... > Current rules require the player to leave the pitch for treatment. IMO this is a much more streamlined solution. If you change that for the same initial stoppage, plus the ref r…

You have a crew of 20 people continuously reviewing the slow motion capture and they tell the results to the ref, who....

You see what I am saying about complicating things. These are just not needed as there are plenty of other fixes to try first!

Are you claiming that a ref in the field can judge this better than one looking at a slow motion video?

Well, uh, probably actually.

You keep saying "injuries" without really quantifying it. Do you mean throwing themselves on the ground and faking it (i.e. diving) or going down under a soft challenge and pretending to be hurt. The first is inexcusable (and sometimes the ref gets it wrong), the second is not on at all but it could still be a correct foul.

the point is that it is way, way harder for a ref on the field to judge than for somebody looking at slow motion video.

It doesn't matter; because it is just part and parcel of what makes up the game. End of. Football doesn't need to be Americanized (I think that term is justified, no offence intended) as far as I am concerned because we enjoy it the way it is.

There are problems, TV replays are not really the fix we are looking for.

It's fixing an obviously broken system.

Obvious to you. For those of us who love and enjoy the sport it is a terrible and badly thought out fix. No thanks :)

The takeaway is this is all part of the game WE enjoy watching/playing. Yes it is getting a little much at times. Yes there are steps we should take to knock the modern footballer into shape :P but no, TV is not the way.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#98

Post by megablast »

lenni wrote: post #95
megablast wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple way to avoid this, have a tribunal to review matches as they do in Aussie Rules football. If a player is caught deliberately diving, ban them for life. If everyone is wondering why the USA does not get into soccer, it is because the blatant cheating makes it a joke. It is not a real sport, and never will be, when one dive can win a game for a side, and have a player sent off. Americans have a sense of fair pla…

These are the countries where football is most popular. Why shouldn't they have the most influence? I don't know if there is such thing as a World American Football Association, but if there was, I'm sure Americans would call the shots.

There are other countries where soccer is also very popular, England, Germany, France, rest of western Europe, Eastern Europe, Africa, Asia.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#99

Post by sanderjd »

megablast wrote: post #91
ErrantX wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it really kill soccer if we had video replay? Yes. Alot. Injuries already interrupt the flow of the game - and one thing Football is good at is flowing (one reason I personally enjoy it). A good game is non-stop action (which is my only criticism of US sports - I usually get bored waiting for baseball for example :)) Match outcomes are routinely altered by erroneous ref. decisions, decisions which the whole wor…

Simple way to avoid this, have a tribunal to review matches as they do in Aussie Rules football. If a player is caught deliberately diving, ban them for life. If everyone is wondering why the USA does not get into soccer, it is because the blatant cheating makes it a joke. It is not a real sport, and never will be, when one dive can win a game for a side, and have a player sent off. Americans have a sense of fair pla…

In the NFL there is generally at least one hold on every play that goes uncalled. Far from offending our sense of fair play, we accept it as part of the game. Basketball is actually strategically centered around fouling and drawing fouls, charging players under the hoop and assuming their feet aren't set, which they usually aren't. These are perfectly accepted aspects of the sport. I hate the diving in soccer, but the push and pull of what the referee will allow you to get away with is a large part of every sport.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#100

Post by jules »

ErrantX wrote: post #97
jules wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if we had to stop each time a player went down to decide if contact was made or not that would just ruin the game :P Ehm, obviously the players would pretend less if they get punished for it. That's the idea of a working ref system... > Current rules require the player to leave the pitch for treatment. IMO this is a much more streamlined solution. If you change that for the same initial stoppage, plus the ref r…

You have a crew of 20 people continuously reviewing the slow motion capture and they tell the results to the ref, who.... You see what I am saying about complicating things. These are just not needed as there are plenty of other fixes to try first! Are you claiming that a ref in the field can judge this better than one looking at a slow motion video? Well, uh, probably actually. You keep saying "injuries" without rea…

What does america have to do with it?

> It doesn't matter; because it is just part and parcel of what makes up the game. End of. Football doesn't need to be Americanized (I think that term is justified, no offence intended) as far as I am concerned because we enjoy it the way it is.

BTW, I'm from Europe. And everybody I know agrees that TV replays for judging fouls is good. So, your appeal to "we" is a non-argument at best.

> Obvious to you. For those of us who love and enjoy the sport it is a terrible and badly thought out fix. No thanks :)

You are dropping all reasoning and you are just saying "we like it this way, no thanks.".

> TV is not the way.

Then what is?

To summarize your two points:

1) "We already like it this way" -- unclear who we is, and not an argument against replays: maybe it would be even better with replays.

2) "There are other, better fixes" -- without mentioning what these fixes are.

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